Main Disconnect On Crawlspace Ceiling

[Chad Fabry]

So how would you satisfy the requirement for Up to be on with a face down or face up panel?

For this panel, any horizontal mounting will result in a switch that can't be up when on.

Wait.

Considering the arc of the switch swing it is up in the on position, it just happens to also be up in the off position. Thank God that's settled.

[Tom Raymond]

While this has been great fun, I still don't understand why we need a code cite when it's obvious the disconnect in the OP is in about as appropriate a place as this one:

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FTR, this picture isn't mine, it was sent to me by the local ASHI Chapter. Apparently it's their latest method to attract members, fill their inboxes with crap.

Tom

[Jack Davenport]

I was reluctant to post this but now is the time to do so.

I know that fine print notes (FPN) and commentaries in the NEC and the NEC handbook are not enforceable BUT .....

In the 2008 National Electrical Handbook ,published by the NFPA, has commentary included in it. The commentary is "intended to assist users in understanding and applying the NEC." In other words the commentary is written by the NFPA and/or the code making panels to explain the code sections. The commentary explaining NEC articl 240.33 reads:

The general rule of 240.33 requires enclosures for overcurrent devices to be installed in a vertical position. A wall mounted vertical position for enclosures for overcurrent devices is desirable to afford easier acccess,natural hand operation,normal swinging or closing of doors or covers,and legibility of the manufactures markings.In addition this section does not permit a panelboard or fusible switch enclosure to be installed in a horizontal position such that the back of the enclosure is mounted on the ceiling or the floor. Compliance with the up position of the handle being on or closed,and the down position of the handle being off or open,in accordance with 240.81 limits the number of pole spaces available on a panelboard where it's cabinet is mounted in a horizontal position on the wall.

The sentence in bold explains the code making panels /NFPA's intent of this code section as it applies to this topic of conversation. I'm willing to bet if you were to contact NFPA for a clarification they would agree that it can not be mounted on it's back facing down.

[Jack Davenport]

I was just looking at the first post and the picture of this installation.

Incorrect installation

Violations that I can see (and I'm sure there's more on the inside)

Disconnect facing down ( nec article 240.33)

Breaker not labeled as the service disconnect ( nec article 230.70(B)

Where is the System Grounding Connections ?

(nec article 250.24(A) )

If this is all done at the panel in the "main Basement" it is an incorrect installation. THat should be wired as a subpanel with the grounding (ground) and the grounded ( neutral) isolated form each other.

[Jim Katen]

So how would you satisfy the requirement for Up to be on with a face down or face up panel?

There is no such requirement. The requirement is for up to be on when the breaker is operated vertically.

When the breaker is operated ratationally or horizontally, it need only clearly indicate "on" and "off."

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Jim Katen]

I was reluctant to post this but now is the time to do so.

Just curious, but why on earth would you be reluctant to post it?

I know that fine print notes (FPN) and commentaries in the NEC and the NEC handbook are not enforceable BUT .....

In the 2008 National Electrical Handbook ,published by the NFPA, has commentary included in it. The commentary is "intended to assist users in understanding and applying the NEC." In other words the commentary is written by the NFPA and/or the code making panels to explain the code sections. The commentary explaining NEC articl 240.33 reads:

The general rule of 240.33 requires enclosures for overcurrent devices to be installed in a vertical position. A wall mounted vertical position for enclosures for overcurrent devices is desirable to afford easier acccess,natural hand operation,normal swinging or closing of doors or covers,and legibility of the manufactures markings.In addition this section does not permit a panelboard or fusible switch enclosure to be installed in a horizontal position such that the back of the enclosure is mounted on the ceiling or the floor. Compliance with the up position of the handle being on or closed,and the down position of the handle being off or open,in accordance with 240.81 limits the number of pole spaces available on a panelboard where it's cabinet is mounted in a horizontal position on the wall.

The sentence in bold explains the code making panels /NFPA's intent of this code section as it applies to this topic of conversation. I'm willing to bet if you were to contact NFPA for a clarification they would agree that it can not be mounted on it's back facing down.

The commentary contains information that simply is not present in the code. The authors (who are not the CMP) have made this up out of whole cloth. It is their opinion. It might be a good opinion, but it's not what is written in the NEC.

240.33 is very straightforward. It says:

OCPD enclosures should generally be vertical.

If that isn't practicable, they many be horizontal.

If they're horizontal, and if there are breakers within them that are operated vertically, those breakers can't be "on" in the down position.

That's all it says.

I remind you of Charlie's rule:

It doesn't say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say, and if by chance you are its author, it doesn't say what you intended it to say. Then what does it say? It says what it says. So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, and don't ask anyone else. Go back and read it, and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time.

- Jim Katen, Oregon