moisture in attic

[RobC]

Terry, it's wired into the fan. The humidifier and blower will energize whether there's a heat demand or not.

The reason I asked is that some folks run the main blower 24/7 (I do in the dead of winter). In this case the humidifier is also working 24/7.

The humidifier is not really working, it's only energized when the blower comes on and waiting for a call from the humidistat. The blower and hum have to be interlocked otherwise the hum would run continuously and cause damage to the furnace by dumping moisture inside the plenum.

[Terence McCann]

Terry, it's wired into the fan. The humidifier and blower will energize whether there's a heat demand or not.

The reason I asked is that some folks run the main blower 24/7 (I do in the dead of winter). In this case the humidifier is also working 24/7.

The humidifier is not really working, it's only energized when the blower comes on and waiting for a call from the humidistat. The blower and hum have to be interlocked otherwise the hum would run continuously and cause damage to the furnace by dumping moisture inside the plenum.

Yep, I understand that.

[Bain]

Unsurprisingly, a little research on ozone air-purifiers produces lots of mixed opinions. Ozone in living spaces is bad, however RGF claims their products produce less than what the EPA says is a harmful dose for humans.

I suppose it's like radon, global warming and all the rest. Since I own the thing, however, I'm gonna dig a little deeper and try to learn more.

[Les]

This is one I "looked" at today!

Building is maybe 100' x 300' with abt 500gallons of water captured in the insulation; liquid and ice.

Maybe adding a nice ridge vent and some of those cute soffit perf vents will solve the problem!

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[Tom Raymond]

Ventilation isn't going to help that building, notice the drip lines in the insulation correspond nicely to the purlins under the steel? Isolating the steel surface from the attic air space is the only way to fix that.

Tom

[Les]

Tom,

I was being trite.

Ventilation is not always the answer.

This is not a house.

After awhile all inspectors must realize there is never a pat answer to anything and we do not know it all.

How would you isolate the metal roofing from the attic space? (given the info you have)

[Tom Raymond]

I should have guessed that from the size of the building, and I agree that ventilation is not always the answer. In fact I think the whole current thinking on ventilated roof decks is faulty, the decision to vent or insulate, and the design of either system, needs to be undertaken by someone better educated than the roofer, sider, insulator installing them. For that matter, what other component of such critical function is left to multiple trades to install? Maybe it's intentional, there's plausable deniability when the soffit/ridge vents fail to work and each of the three tradesmen have done what they were told.

At the risk of being pat:

The building in your pics has either the wrong insulation or the wrong application of the steel roofing. The fix would be to spray foam the underside of the steel. Even inserting rigid foam insulation between the purlins would be far better than what is there. A plywood deck and 30# felt would have been a better initial install. But you knew that already.[]

Tom

[Bain]

Well, if anyone's interested, here's a link to what the EPA says about ozone-producing air purifiers. It's all pretty noncommittal, but if I'm reading the subtext correctly, EPA isn't too hip on the things. The FDA says the safe level for humans and pets regarding ozone is >0.05 ppm.

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html

Here's the flip side--or defense--from the manufacturer of the purifier in my basement.

Download Attachment: rgf ozone.pdf

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Oh . . . what to do? I wonder if Grainger sells an ozone measuring device?

[Terence McCann]

Ozone Monitor - only 584.00 but the upside is you get a price break if you buy 3 or more [:-party]

[John Dirks Jr]

I know you have a moisture encounter meter, what were your readings on the sheathing?

I didn't use the moisture meter in the attic. To me it was clear that there was a condensation problem. I didn't need the tool to help me conclude a suspicion. The evidence was clear. The moisture was visible with the naked eye and the roof sheathing and gable wall was wet to the touch.

[John Kogel]

I know you have a moisture encounter meter, what were your readings on the sheathing?

I didn't use the moisture meter in the attic. .

I agree, John. The pics you posted show soaking wet sheathing. The first order would be to dry it up, I think. Then clean up, insulate, seal the hatch and I would definitely call for venting those fans outside.

Some people generate much more moisture just by the way they operate their heaters and fans. Like the others have said, no two houses are the same. Hatch leaks are pretty common, but some attics aren't affected. It could be just life styles.

A couple of leaky fan pics to illustrate. The 60 year old attic was probably fine until they stuck that vent pipe up there.

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[Brandon Whitmore]

Side note: that flex duct vent pipe (heat duct) is most likely not allowed for that use.

[hausdok]

Side note: that flex duct vent pipe (heat duct) is most likely not allowed for that use.

Care to explain that, 'cuz that's what's exclusively used in new construction around here.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Chad Fabry]

Care to explain that, 'cuz that's what's exclusively used in new construction around here.

I don't believe it's required by code but every fan I've installed recommended insulated duct in unconditioned spaces to prevent condensation.

Bottom left of page two

[RobC]

Well, if anyone's interested, here's a link to what the EPA says about ozone-producing air purifiers. It's all pretty noncommittal, but if I'm reading the subtext correctly, EPA isn't too hip on the things. The FDA says the safe level for humans and pets regarding ozone is >0.05 ppm.

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html

Here's the flip side--or defense--from the manufacturer of the purifier in my basement.

Download Attachment: rgf ozone.pdf

128.09 KB

Oh . . . what to do? I wonder if Grainger sells an ozone measuring device?

I don't have to read any further than this.

What is Ozone?

Ozone is a molecule composed of three atoms of oxygen. Two atoms of oxygen form the basic oxygen molecule--the oxygen we breathe that is essential to life. The third oxygen atom can detach from the ozone molecule, and re-attach to molecules of other substances, thereby altering their chemical composition.

The words 're-attach and altering their chemical composition' would scare me enough to advise you to consider an alternate method of air filtration.

I wouldn't rely on recommendations from the Chinese or the EPA.

[Les]

that characteristic is why we use it for de-ordorizing houses.

[Marc]

Does that mean that these aerosol cans of room deodorizer have ozone in them?

Marc

[RobC]

that characteristic is why we use it for de-ordorizing houses.

I don't have a problem with deodorizing vacant houses.

It's the occupied ones I'm talking about.

[Bain]

Well, if anyone's interested, here's a link to what the EPA says about ozone-producing air purifiers. It's all pretty noncommittal, but if I'm reading the subtext correctly, EPA isn't too hip on the things. The FDA says the safe level for humans and pets regarding ozone is >0.05 ppm.

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html

Here's the flip side--or defense--from the manufacturer of the purifier in my basement.

Download Attachment: rgf ozone.pdf

128.09 KB

Oh . . . what to do? I wonder if Grainger sells an ozone measuring device?

I don't have to read any further than this.

What is Ozone?

Ozone is a molecule composed of three atoms of oxygen. Two atoms of oxygen form the basic oxygen molecule--the oxygen we breathe that is essential to life. The third oxygen atom can detach from the ozone molecule, and re-attach to molecules of other substances, thereby altering their chemical composition.

The words 're-attach and altering their chemical composition' would scare me enough to advise you to consider an alternate method of air filtration.

I wouldn't rely on recommendations from the Chinese or the EPA.

The RGF device purportedly does its job while keeping the ozone level below the danger level of .05 ppm. But . . . of course how can they know that will occur if they aren't calculating the cubic footage, air changes, etc.?

The unit is currently unplugged till I find the time to perform more research.

It does/did work like a dream.

[Les]

John,

why not put a switch by the door so you can turn it off whenever you are out of the house? That is what I'd do. Can't take chances with your own personal health!*

*this from a guy that smoked two packs a day for 46 1/2 years!

[charlieb]

that characteristic is why we use it for de-ordorizing houses.

Houses and everything else. I used them in commercial spaces next to a smoked fill bar and in mall spaces where carpet cleaning companies could not eliminate the after effects of a burst sewer line. My company replaced drywall, grid and ceiling tiles.

I keep a unit in my home. I do keep the ozone portion turned off except for once or twice a year I'll crank it up to kill anything that is in the house. Did it when I took the family to Branson for thanksgiving.

I breathe much better and haven't had a sinus infection in years. I'm sad that I can not take it with me when I fly. Check me at IW, by Sunday PM I'll be congested.

[Brandon Whitmore]

Care to explain that, 'cuz that's what's exclusively used in new construction around here.

Of course-- manufacturers installation instructions must be followed. The last time I installed some flex heat duct I read the installation instructions provided, and they specifically stated their heat duct was not for that use. I just checked JPL's on- line instructions and don't see anything against that use. I'll have to look into it some more.

[Bain]

John,

why not put a switch by the door so you can turn it off whenever you are out of the house? That is what I'd do. Can't take chances with your own personal health!*

*this from a guy that smoked two packs a day for 46 1/2 years!

Because I have Loki, the wonder dog, to think about.

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I could, however, let the thing run when me and my boy are going to be outside or gone for a few hours.

[RobC]

Well, if anyone's interested, here's a link to what the EPA says about ozone-producing air purifiers. It's all pretty noncommittal, but if I'm reading the subtext correctly, EPA isn't too hip on the things. The FDA says the safe level for humans and pets regarding ozone is >0.05 ppm.

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html

Here's the flip side--or defense--from the manufacturer of the purifier in my basement.

Download Attachment: rgf ozone.pdf

128.09 KB

Oh . . . what to do? I wonder if Grainger sells an ozone measuring device?

I don't have to read any further than this.

What is Ozone?

Ozone is a molecule composed of three atoms of oxygen. Two atoms of oxygen form the basic oxygen molecule--the oxygen we breathe that is essential to life. The third oxygen atom can detach from the ozone molecule, and re-attach to molecules of other substances, thereby altering their chemical composition.

The words 're-attach and altering their chemical composition' would scare me enough to advise you to consider an alternate method of air filtration.

I wouldn't rely on recommendations from the Chinese or the EPA.

The RGF device purportedly does its job while keeping the ozone level below the danger level of .05 ppm. But . . . of course how can they know that will occur if they aren't calculating the cubic footage, air changes, etc.?

The unit is currently unplugged till I find the time to perform more research.

It does/did work like a dream.

That's a dangerous thing to assume.

What if the sensor fails?

If the sensor is at the unit and shuts off at limit of .05ppm then what is the actual reading in the living space.

Furthermore, who determined that the danger level is .05 ppm....the EPA!@#$@#?

I don't need anything altering my chemical composition..thank you...at any ppm.

Then, what happens when the third O molecule is floating around and can't find anything to 'alter'? Does it loose interest (self destructs) or does it keep on searching for more stuff, like occupants, hamsters..aquariums.....

Question is: What is the life expectancy of the third O molecule?

There is no question the use of ozone for disaster restoration work has proven very effective. But I don't see its application on a continuous basis in an occupied residence.

I like the switch/timer idea as mentioned above, however, before doing that, you should answer the third molecule life cycle question.

[RobC]

hamsters..aquariums.....and Loki