kurt Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Way too much apologizing for disagreeing going on here. This isn't personal; it's just a home inspection forum. In case you haven't noticed, disagreement is a way of life in most HI forums. Dad's home inspection experience notwithstanding, litigation support and home inspection are two entirely different animals; imagining they are the same is the prerogative of those that don't do both. I imagine a lot of things about things I don't know about, but I usually have the sense to not speak as expert in those areas. I do both; home inspection for 22 years, & litigation support/expert witness work for approx. 5 years, just barely enough to know a little bit about it. Home inspections are a relatively cursory examination of a properties primary components & systems, w/very little beyond observations of conditions & recommendations to the customer of where to proceed. It is a very limited & general evaluation. Forensic evaluation & litigation support, OTOH, are (at least w/my attorney clients) extremely exhaustive, pointed analysis' of specifics, w/reports prepared to advocate for the client in VERY specific ways. It is not general. Reports are prepared to leverage a position, not provide general information. I pity the person attempting to wage an effective court campaign armed w/a home inspection report. My minimum home inspection fee is $425. My average litigation support has no particular average or minimum, but I've yet to get involved in anything where the fee was less than $2500. Home inspections have to take place in a few hours (maybe a whole day for a large house) and have a report prepared & delivered immediately. Litigation support (mine anyway) has the luxury of multiple visits & reports prepared in the office w/full reference library, advice of counsel, internet access, & clerical staff support. You keep missing the point; photos are fine, good, etc. I'm not arguing that they aren't good; I'm arguing that they are a pain in the ass to integrate into a well constructed home inspection report that is prepared in a time frame that allows me to make money. Which, after all, is why I'm in business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Kurt, Is that why we're doing this, to make MONEY? Now you tell me. Jeez, some phone calls(non clients) we get lately seem to think I do this just to kill time. Darren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amn Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Originally posted by kurt Dad's home inspection experience notwithstanding, litigation support and home inspection are two entirely different animals; imagining they are the same is the prerogative of those that don't do both. Fine, I don't do both. And since it's only a member of my family, I have no idea of what I'm writing about in your view I suppose, but I'm am re-reading all of the followup posts by other inspectors since I jumped in, and all but yours say that the inclusion of photos in the report are both valuable and helpful in conveying the message across to your client who may not be as knowledgeable as the report's author; points that I made in the original reply. You keep missing the point; photos are fine, good, etc. I'm not arguing that they aren't good; I'm arguing that they are a pain in the ass to integrate into a well constructed home inspection report... I'm not missing the point; I'm disagreeing with it. And I note that you reiterate another point in my first post. The integration of photos with your software is the rub, not their value. We're certainly getting a lot of mileage out of that original $.02! A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Amn, you clearly have experience & knowledge. I just get a little bunched up when those that aren't doing this little thing we do start formulating & postulating all sorts of theories w/out the field experience to back it up. If you think that I think you don't know what you're talking about relative to this specific little detail of home inspection reports, well, you're probably right. Report preparation is the bugaboo of this whole business. I'd love to get you in the field and watch you go @ it on 2-a-days, for a month. I think you'd understand the position a little better. It's brutal. I've yet to meet anyone that has their software wired, including me, and I've been working on mine for 12 years. It works really well, but it still takes a lot of time; time that I don't get paid for as well as I would like, and as is necessary to pay for all those little things like health insurance, kids college, retirement, & business operations. I think you would be surprised how few of our competitors have taken the time to break out their expenses & relate them to the REAL time it takes to pull it off (as in $ per hour). As w/many businesses, the pricing structure is often controlled by the least competent & ignorant practitioners (think airline industry). For those that want to make it, it's a function of shaving margins of time. For the time being, pricing structures don't support large quantities of photos, at least not for me. At such point in time as pricing elevates, heck let's go for it; every defect gets a photo. Right now, I content myself w/providing code references & practical well written sentences to convey information. (I suppose that the fact I type in the 110-120 wpm range influences my directions.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 ... all but yours say that the inclusion of photos in the report are both valuable and helpful in conveying the message across to your client who may not be as knowledgeable as the report's author Maybe I can help balance the scale. I agree with Kurt. Here are my reasons: 1. By the end of the inspection my client should be as knowledgeable as I am about the property. 2. I've seen too many reports that are either poorly written, horrible software or computer generated checklists that don't describe conditions adequately. Adding photos doesn't do anything to improve these types of reports that seem to dominate this profession. Now I do have a digital camera on me at all times and use it for specific reasons. For example, I can plug it directly into a TV in my van to show a condition found on the roof, inside a chimney or in a crawlspace that my client could not view for themselves. I will also include a photo in a report if I thought it would be helpful to a contractor to find a specific location for an item needing repair. I will only include many photos throughout the report if the client could not attend, it is a commercial property or if the clients are a group of investors, board of directors, etc. I am very concerned that there may be many inspectors out there not generating understandable, useful reports because they are relying on photos and software to do most of the work for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 I think Bill maybe hit w/more accuracy on some of my concerns. (as usual)..... I'm seeing lots of reports w/ photos, and wads of poorly written boilerplate. Looks good, no content. I'm trying to work @ it the other way; all content, then looks good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amn Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Originally posted by kurt I just get a little bunched up when those that aren't doing this little thing we do start formulating & postulating all sorts of theories w/out the field experience to back it up. I'm desperately trying to stay on-topic here about the use of photos in reports and the value they bring in conveying the idea to a less knowledgeable reader. Hell, I'm currently a client to a home inspector, I am the reader! If not being a home inspector bunches you up about it, then ask me to leave the forum. I rather like getting exposure to other professions especially when our knowledge overlaps; it's what has brought me here. But if a litany of 2-a-days is a perquisite to an opinion around here, I'll spare you the trouble. You can focus on the difficulty, time, and effort involved with expanding your skills and enhancing your reports with photos if you want, but IMHO I don't think that it's going to serve you well. Just look around this forum. Your peers are incorporating photos in reports and raising the bar here. I have never made any success telling anyone how hard it was to produce my work. All my success has been from focusing on wowing my clients and I do that by gaining new knowledge and incorporating it into my work every day. You really don't get a say in the acumen of your reports' readers. If photos assist in telling the story, then I say that they are a benefit -for what it's worth. I think that we've drifted far off topic on photos and maybe we should leave it at "reasonable men may differ". A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisprickett Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 At the risk of sticking my nose where it doesn't belong, let me put in my two cents: Kurt's clientle consists (for the most part) of highly educated, successful Chicago professionals. In the realm that he inspects, high dollar buildings are involved, and everybody has a posse of attorneys. In that environment, you had better deliver an inspection document that comes across as professional, concise, and practically bullet-proff. The fact that he's prospered, for 22 years, speaks volumes. In his case, photos are more eye candy than substance. He has developed his own software that meets the needs of his clientle. "Is that so wrong?" FWIW, the guy has crapped out more more inspection experience (this morning) than most of us possess. That carries enough weight to at least ponder his viewpoint, even if you disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Thanx Chris. And thanks to Amn too; anyone that will stay in the ring w/me and counterpunch fine points is my kind of guy. In case you haven't figured it out yet, I can get a bug up my ass on some stuff. On a broader note, I would like to hear you (Amn) talk about your experiences in litigation & support work. It is an area I barely got my toes into, & the amount I don't know is frightening. If you find the time & have the inclination, educate us about courtrooms; we could all use it. And, reasonable people disagreeing is fine w/me; none of this is personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kteitel Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 I just started taking pictures and it adds about 1/2 to 1 hour extra per report. I use the Matrix report form (non-computer) so I can deliver the report on site and since I am new, I don't need the hassle/stress of a computer crash. But since I now use pictures I have added more time at home to download the image to the computer and then change the resolution and the sending the pictures. So my hourly rate was cut by over 15% (a 3 hour inspection now requires 3 1/2+ hours). Even though I am doing a better job for my clients, I am making less per hour. As soon as I am more confident in myself I will either get one of the reporting software on the market or make my own. Kevin Teitel House-Pro Inspections Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randynavarro Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 I'd really like to incorporate a lot more photos to produce a better overall package for the client, however I am not willing to spend the extra time it takes to do a complete and thorough job of it. I strictly focus on a proper and ever-improving written report. So, I'm pretty sure I'll be adding an option to my inspection services - if clients want a photo essay completed, they can choose to pay for it. I agree with Kurt (and most other reasonable business folk), my time is too valuable to just keep adding and adding goodies into an inspection and taking longer to do it. I haven't figured a price yet for the photo essay. Maybe somewhere between 50-75% of the cost of the inspection. I figured it will take at least half the time to prepare a photo essay properly. Most people probably won't go for it but hey, if they want it they can pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottpat Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 I use 3D and have not had any problems with their support. They have a forum that you can post your problems or questions if you have one. As for Porter Valley, I must say that I am not happy with the way their owner is plotting how to handle my society with members of a cyber home inspector association. I think he has also been appointed a directorship with that group. Just my opinion and that won't buy you a coke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amn Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Originally posted by kurt And thanks to Amn too; anyone that will stay in the ring w/me and counterpunch fine points is my kind of guy. It's been a heated debate, but I must admit that those are my favorite kinds. It's just tough not getting too worked up over it . On a broader note, I would like to hear you (Amn) talk about your experiences in litigation & support work. New topic then? A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian G Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Originally posted by kurt And thanks to Amn too; anyone that will stay in the ring w/me and counterpunch fine points is my kind of guy. Absolutely. I like people who know what they think AND why they think it, agree with me or not. (I would note that the gentleman's name is Andrew, not Amn.) On a broader note, I would like to hear you (Amn) talk about your experiences in litigation & support work. Ditto. And, reasonable people disagreeing is fine w/me; none of this is personal. Amen Brother Kurt. As both adults and professionals (supposedly) we should be able to debate virtually anything (even strongly) without getting personal. In business matters one should never get personal unless someone else makes it personal, and most times not even then. Business: "I'd like a receipt please." Personal "I'd like a receipt, you crooked SOB." Brian G. Mental Judo Lover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Originally posted by Amn New topic then? A Sure. New topic. I just set one up under Business; if you want to, go for it. I'm listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Originally posted by Scottpat As for Porter Valley, I must say that I am not happy with the way their owner is plotting how to handle my society with members of a cyber home inspector association. I think he has also been appointed a directorship with that group. Just my opinion and that won't buy you a coke! I pretty much stay clear of the association vs. association shenanigans, but I must say I am also bothered by the pronouncements of Mr. Porter Valley. No good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amn Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Sure. New topic. I just set one up under Business; if you want to, go for it. I'm listening. OK. Give me a little time. I've just bailed out of buying a house here in Houston -because of what was revealed in the Inspector's Reports. I need to regroup and catch up a little on the home front. And thanks Brian, but "Amn" is fine too. I use that nick a lot on the web and gotten used to it. Either works for me. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monte Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 We use the Matrix Report form for our Home Inspections with a Cannon Printer that will read a SD Card from our camera. The pictures are printed four to a page (The Punchlist & Safety page comments are referred to a Photo Number and also the Comments in the Matrix Form are referred to a Photo Number ) The Report with pictures are then given to our client at the close of Inspection. Time added to the Inspection is about 15 minutes. Our commercial reports are prepare back at the office under a different Reporting Format Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Mike, I thought EIB Electric was an april fools joke! Sometimes I'm not to bright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Hi Les, No, I clicked on that link and it did take me to an electrical systems testing softward site. For the life of me, though, I can't imagine why any residential home inspector would ever want to use such a program. It's more appropriate for someone inspecting factories, power plants, hospitals and other large commercial structures. OT - OF!!! M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronald Reedy Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 One word says it best HomeGauge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homnspector Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 Do you guys think it is ethical / legal to sell old inspection software you no longer use, or old versions after you have upgraded? I have older versions that are perfectly usable that I have paid for but that I don't need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 Originally posted by homnspector Do you guys think it is ethical / legal to sell old inspection software you no longer use, or old versions after you have upgraded? I have older versions that are perfectly usable that I have paid for but that I don't need. What does the license agreement say? - Jim Katen, Oregon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homnspector Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Good idea, but if I have to wade through that thing it is probably not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 If I have to stop and ponder if something is unethical, it's likely that something aint right with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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