Siding-to-J-channel gap?; installer right?

[scragin]

I just had a job completed with Continental XL-29 insulated vinyl siding. Now that the job is done, it is clear that there are large gaps between the ends of the horizontal siding and the back of the J-channel in a number of places. Everything I have found calls for a 1/4" gap (3/8" if installed below freezing). The J-channels on my job are 2" deep. The installer is claiming that as long as the end of the siding fits inside the J-channel, it is OK. This means that there can be gaps between the siding and the back of the J-channel of nearly 2 inches. Is the installer correct? If not, just how big a gap is too big a gap?

Aside from the loss of insulating capacity and a greater likelihood of moisture infiltration, are there more downsides to having the end of the siding barely inside the J-channel? I suppose it could pop outside in the winter when the temperature goes down. Any comments or opinions are most appreciated. I'm still sitting on their final payment until this issue is resolved. Thank you in advance.

[Brandon Whitmore]

That sounds like a question for the manufacturers technical rep.

[scragin]

The manufacturer has refused to answer the question saying only that their installers are trained to take "all factors" into consideration such as length and temperature. The problem is that on my job two courses adjacent to each other of the same length and installed on the same day will have as much as an inch of difference in the gap inside the J-channel. I believe the problem to be shoddy installation and am just trying to find out if I'm being reasonable since everything I've seen calls for a 1/4" gap, not the 1 1/2"+ gaps I've seen on my job. What do inspectors look for when evaluating a siding job? Is the siding good to go so long as it fits inside the J-channel, even if barely so? Remember my J-channels are 2" deep so barely inside means that the siding can be 1 1/2"+ from the back of the J-channel.

[Brandon Whitmore]

The problem is that on my job two courses adjacent to each other of the same length and installed on the same day will have as much as an inch of difference in the gap inside the J-channel.

If you slide the 2 pieces in opposite directions, how much of a difference is there (they do slide easily, right?)

The manufacturer has refused to answer the question saying only that their installers are trained to take "all factors" into consideration such as length and temperature

Are you sure you talked with a "technical" rep, and not a sales rep? If they refused to answer my question after telling them I had concerns with a contractor install, I would e- mail their company, tell them I am doing a self install, and ask what the bare min. is.

I believe the problem to be shoddy installation and am just trying to find out if I'm being reasonable since everything I've seen calls for a 1/4" gap, not the 1 1/2"+ gaps I've seen on my job.

Pictures would be nice. Vinyl siding leaks by design, hence the drain holes at the dripedges. The siding is a cladding, and breathes well. My biggest concern would be how well they installed the weather resistive barrier behind it (felt paper/ Tyvek, etc.)

A half inch overlap sounds like it will work, assuming everything else was done right. It is pushing it though, and if inspecting the house, would do my own research.

[scragin]

Thanks, Brandon. The manufacturer only works through "authorized installers" and the installer says if it's inside the J-channel, it's OK. They cut off contact with me because I was persistent in trying to get an answer. I did report them to the BBB for their stonewalling.

Just how easy should it slide? Continental claims to have a special attachment system that prevents the need to leave the 1/32 gap. I haven't tried to move any myself. Guess I'll give that a try.

I'll try to get some pictures uploaded. Bottom line sounds like your opinion is that the siding should be at least 1/2" inside the J-channel.

[Jim Katen]

Thanks, Brandon. The manufacturer only works through "authorized installers" and the installer says if it's inside the J-channel, it's OK. They cut off contact with me because I was persistent in trying to get an answer. I did report them to the BBB for their stonewalling.

Just how easy should it slide? Continental claims to have a special attachment system that prevents the need to leave the 1/32 gap. I haven't tried to move any myself. Guess I'll give that a try.

I'll try to get some pictures uploaded. Bottom line sounds like your opinion is that the siding should be at least 1/2" inside the J-channel.

Check out their special attachment system here:

http://www.continentalsidingsystem.com/ ... elock.html

As for the j-channel, if I stand directly in front of the channel, and the front flange of the channel covers the ends of the vinyl, I wouldn't say a thing about it. It's a cosmetic joint.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[scragin]

Check out their special attachment system here:

http://www.continentalsidingsystem.com/ ... elock.html

As for the j-channel, if I stand directly in front of the channel, and the front flange of the channel covers the ends of the vinyl, I wouldn't say a thing about it. It's a cosmetic joint.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

So the standards provided by the Vinyl Siding Institute (http://www.vinylsiding.org/; and every other installation guideline I could find online) that call for a 1/4" gap are incorrect or unnecessary in your opinion? So long as you can't see the edge of the siding when looking straight-on at the J-channel, it's fine? I guess that applies in the dead of winter. Everyone agree with that?

[Jim Katen]

Check out their special attachment system here:

http://www.continentalsidingsystem.com/ ... elock.html

As for the j-channel, if I stand directly in front of the channel, and the front flange of the channel covers the ends of the vinyl, I wouldn't say a thing about it. It's a cosmetic joint.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

So the standards provided by the Vinyl Siding Institute (http://www.vinylsiding.org/; and every other installation guideline I could find online) that call for a 1/4" gap are incorrect or unnecessary in your opinion?

The VSI manual is very general and doesn't apply to every installation of every product. It certainly doesn't include information about installations with 2" deep J-channel. I wouldn't hang my hat on it for this particular installation, no.

So long as you can't see the edge of the siding when looking straight-on at the J-channel, it's fine? I guess that applies in the dead of winter. Everyone agree with that?

In terms of its function, I don't see a problem.

Loss of insulating capacity? Don't make me laugh.

Moisture infiltration? This is freakin' vinyl siding, it lets water through like a sieve. The drainage plane is behind it.

Popping in winter? Maybe, but unlikely. If it does pop, it's easy to fix.

Now, as a homeowner, if you're not satisfied with the cosmetic appearence of the job, that's a valid gripe. Is it really ugly, or do you have to stick a penknife in there and twist it to see how far the overlap goes?

If you want to have a leg to stand on, you're going to have to get the actual printed manufacturer's installation instructions. Since you seem to have pissed off the only people who can help you with that, why not turn it around? Tell the contractor that you will withold his final payment until he produces a copy of the installation instructions so that you can compare the installation with the instructions?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[inspector57]

The primary function of vinyl siding is appearance as far as I can tell (other than keeping the WRB from blowing off).

So if it looks bad it is not performing as intended, so tell them it is ugly if you don't like it. I like the idea of insisting they produce a printed copy of the installation instructions.

[scragin]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the viewpoints. I'll see if the local installer can provide the installation standards. And even though I'm not happy with the gap in some places, I'll work with the the installer and try to be reasonable. It seems like the 2" J is really designed to allow for "slop" and that the installer took advantage of that. Anyway, thank you all again.

[Brandon Whitmore]

I believe that the 1/4" gap you keep coming back to should be a minimum gap. That is to allow for expansion. More of a gap is not necessarily a bad thing.

[RobC]

I just had a job completed with Continental XL-29 insulated vinyl siding. Now that the job is done, it is clear that there are large gaps between the ends of the horizontal siding and the back of the J-channel in a number of places. Everything I have found calls for a 1/4" gap (3/8" if installed below freezing). The J-channels on my job are 2" deep. The installer is claiming that as long as the end of the siding fits inside the J-channel, it is OK. This means that there can be gaps between the siding and the back of the J-channel of nearly 2 inches. Is the installer correct? If not, just how big a gap is too big a gap?

Aside from the loss of insulating capacity and a greater likelihood of moisture infiltration, are there more downsides to having the end of the siding barely inside the J-channel? I suppose it could pop outside in the winter when the temperature goes down. Any comments or opinions are most appreciated. I'm still sitting on their final payment until this issue is resolved. Thank you in advance.

Scott,

Your concern is justified, if your siding is flush with the edge of the 2â€

[scragin]

Is the following what you originally wrote? My screen shows some strange characters instead of the dimensions in the excerpt below.

When I install vinyl I consider the following:

1. A 12 foot sheet will expand/contract 1/2". I know that I need 1/4" at each end of the sheet to allow for movement and prevent buckling.

2. The length I'm installing - a 6' piece will move approx. 1/4" and so on.

3. The air temperature at the time of installation and a general sense of the material temperature. The temperature is critical in determining whether I install tight or loose.

I'll try to get some pics posted today.

[RobC]

Yes,

I'm sure photos will generate even more discussion and perhaps identify more stuff you haven't considered.

[scragin]

The forum won't let me upload pictures, though I am logged in and it will let me post. I've contacted info@inspectorsjournal.com for help.

[hausdok]

Hi Scott,

In order to upload a photo you have to ensure that it's in an acceptable format and there can't be any gaps or symbols, like parenthesis, in the file name. For spaces use underscore and remove all special symbols and upload them again.

Also, if you are using Firefox or Netscape, depending on the version, you might encounter difficulty. If that's the case, open up an IE browser and try again.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[scragin]

It was Firefox. Here are some pics. If you can't tell, the siding is between 1/4 and 1/2 inch inside J-channel.

Click to Enlarge

42.73 KB

Click to Enlarge

30.62 KB

[Brandon Whitmore]

That's why pic's are good. I thought you were talking about corner post areas (such as outside wall corners). At the soffit area, water won't be getting in, so I would consider this a cosmetic detail. That is, as long as the siding is properly attached and is not only being held in place by the channel.

My opinion is that this is a non issue, cosmetics aside. Others may disagree.

[Tom Raymond]

How cold might it get there? If it gets cold enough those panels will contract right out of the channels. I'd ask the installer to try and shift the panels deeper into the channels if they can, and to replace those panels that won't. If you get friction send those pictures to the manufacturer and request that they send a rep to look at it. When one contracts a professional, the results shouldn't look like a DIY project.

Tom

[RobC]

I'm not too happy about the way he's installed his corner or for that matter the profile he's used, however......

But the concern here is the siding having insufficient coverage by the J' mold.

Judging by the photo, he hasn't followed the correct pitch and seems short at the top of the sheet on the first photo. The top square cut sheet appears flush to the outside edge of the corner mold.

The second photo clearly shows a sheet not covering the one below as evidenced by the exposed lock.

In the months ahead when the temperature drops the gaps will be more noticeable and there may be a concern that the sheet(s) may not slide back inside the J's.

I would suggest you drive around the neighborhood and document others for a comparison.

I seldom, if ever, see unvented vinyl soffit,

Questions:

Did he use the same soffit throughout the house?

Is this a reno over ply soffit?

Do we want to concern ourselves with the windows and doors?

[scragin]

The soffit is a remodel over existing stained panel (I wanted to go maintenance-free). Should vented have been used? Yikes, another thing to worry about...

[RobC]

Most definitely.

[Tom Raymond]

Most definitely.

Well, yes if you have soffit vents. If there is a different ventilation system for the roof, then no you don't need vented soffit panels.

Tom

[sidingmaster]

The reason that the 2 inch J-channel is needed is because this is a long length 29 foot panel. As far as a drainage plane goes, I believe you need an airspace behind insulated siding because there is no air gap behind insulated siding unlike hollow back vinyl siding. This can cause water to pool and soak into the substrate in certain situations. Manufactures have came out with drainage mats for insulated siding because of this. Codes are changing in the future to deal with Moisture behind siding.

I would never install any type of siding including hollow back vinyl without an air gap to drain and dry out the moisture.

[sidingmaster]

That's why pic's are good. I thought you were talking about corner post areas (such as outside wall corners). At the soffit area, water won't be getting in, so I would consider this a cosmetic detail. That is, as long as the siding is properly attached and is not only being held in place by the channel.

My opinion is that this is a non issue, cosmetics aside. Others may disagree.

Bad cut right there. This will pop out for sure. I have installed siding for 20 years and see this all the time. Improper installation. Improper installation typically means no warranty.