Crud, Mold and Heat Exchangers in Barry's Court

[hausdok]

There was a time when his column seemed to offer homeowners primarily tips on home maintenance and such; but now Barry Stone's columns seem, with much more frequency, to be opinions proferred about inspector liability, with only a complainant's side of the story and no input from the inspectors involved.

Is that fair? Isn't it sort of like Judge Judy rendering a decision in her court without ever allowing the accused to open his mouth? Have you ever wondered whether these snipits of "advice" have resulted in the complainer initiating a lawsuit against a home inspector?

Today Judge Barry rules on whirlpool tub crud, undersink mold and heat exchanger cracks. What would your own rulings have been?

[Neal Lewis]

I see the jacuzzi funk all the time and never even thought about reporting it. I show the buyer and tell them to disinfect, etc.

So Barry, what type of comment would be appropriate, and would I report it when I see a few black flecks, or does it have to be a few dozen??

[hausdok]

Hi,

Well, the article doesn't state how long a period elapsed between when the inspector checked the tub and when those folks took possession and used it. Could the home have been vacant and nobody filled the tub in such a long time that there was time for the crud to develop? If there was, then Barry is talking through his hat, isn't he?

Then there's Barry telling them how to clean the circulation system - I think that's, frankly, nuts. What all home buyers should know is that whirlpool tubs are a prime source for infection and they all need to be properly cleaned and disinfected when one takes possession of a house. Even when you don't see the black gunk, there can still be bacteria there and these things have the real potential to spread MRSA. Check out the information sources at this search string:

http://www.bing.com/search?q=staph+infe ... -SearchBox

I make it a practice to warn folks that whirlpool tubs can be the source of staph infections and I recommend they either get on the net and do some research to find the proper way to clean and sanitize one of these systems before they use it or they call a professional to do it for them.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Jerry Simon]

Maybe it's a little over the top, but I told many customers to buy a new tub before they moved in. When they asked why, I said something like, "Well, if you use this tub, you'll be simmering in a cauldron of other folks' skin cells and body fluids.

WJ

If you're gonna say that, might as well tell them to buy a brand new house, one built by them new-fangled robots. Ain't household dust something like 80% dead skin cells? Then you gots your sneezin', coughin', droolin' ('specially down south), puking, poor piss aiming, poor I-don't-want-to-mention-here aiming, adceteranauseam. That, though, would probably really be over the top.

[Brandon Whitmore]

If contractors were careful when installing the tub lines, they would make sure they drained properly. Would this not help prevent that crud from forming?

Regarding the heat exchanger: The furnace is only 4 years old and has developed problems. First of all, I think the minimum furnace warranties are for 5 years?, so this may be a warranty issue that may not cover labor (expensive labor). The furnace was only 3.5 years old when they closed on the house. There's a chance that the furnace did not have a crack until after the inspection. It's kinda like my complaint I received from a seller the other day. He claimed that I caused a shower head to drip, yet it was fine during the walk through at the end of the inspection.....

[Brandon Whitmore]

But, but, but... what if the contractors were careless (shock!),

Contractors careless? Nooooo........ But really, the blame for issues really should be going back to the source of the problem.

I just keep picturing stained hotel linens under UV light. Yeesh.

My hotel room in Seattle last year had dirty (not stained) sheets, and lipstick on the glasses next to the sink[:-yuck] It looked like someone ran in in front of us, and just threw things together without cleaning. If one were to worry too much about germs, they probably should not stay in hotel rooms, use public restrooms, etc. Heck, maybe we should follow in the footsteps of the Chinese, and start wearing face masks around town............

[Jim Katen]

If contractors were careful when installing the tub lines, they would make sure they drained properly. Would this not help prevent that crud from forming?

Actually, the contractors don't install the tub lines. That all happens at the tub factory and is governed by an ANSI standard that allows 1-1/2 fluid ounces per jet & suction fitting. So even a small tub with only four jets & one suction fitting is allowed to retain 7-1/2 ounces of water. Pretty nasty. If you're looking for a place to assign blame, start with ANSI.

Walter might be on to something because even the pro cleaning systems don't clean the air inlet pipes. Water often backs up into these pipes and contaminates them. So even if you get the tub professionally cleaned, creepy crawlies in the air inlet tubes can reinfect the rest of the system after one bath.

So you get to sit in a bath of germ soup that gets cold after 10 minutes of use and that makes so much noise it's like putting your head in a jet engine. And you get to spend $1,200 for the privilege.

I'll stick to taking a shower.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[hausdok]

Hmm,

I see a lot of those suckers. I'm thinking that if a smart guy were to come up with a really good way to thoroughly clean and sanitize these entire systems, including the air pipes, while doing it onsite without pulling them out - there's money to be made there.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Neal Lewis]

Well, I guess they could just install the air jet type of tub rather than the recirculating type. Seems to be more sanitary anyway.

[Tom Raymond]

"Barry Stone seems to believe everything a disgruntled homeowner says. You'd think he'd have developed a little skepticism after all of his years in the biz."

WJ

I thought Barry was being uncharacteristically kind to his fellow inspectors, even his little rant about heat exchangers was softer than his usual (s)tone.

As far as bubbletubs go, I check to see that hot and cold are on the correct sides, and observe functional flow and drainage. I do not run the bubbles, I'm not gonna watch it fill up for 30 minutes and my clients don't expect me to. In my report I identify the maker, and instruct my client to obtain the operating and maintenance manuals prior to using it. If I'm feeling particularly generous I will call the manufacturer and get them emailed to me and include them as an attachment when I send their report.

Tom

[hausdok]

"Barry Stone seems to believe everything a disgruntled homeowner says. You'd think he'd have developed a little skepticism after all of his years in the biz."

WJ

I thought Barry was being uncharacteristically kind to his fellow inspectors, even his little rant about heat exchangers was softer than his usual (s)tone.

As far as bubbletubs go, I check to see that hot and cold are on the correct sides, and observe functional flow and drainage. I do not run the bubbles, I'm not gonna watch it fill up for 30 minutes and my clients don't expect me to. In my report I identify the maker, and instruct my client to obtain the operating and maintenance manuals prior to using it. If I'm feeling particularly generous I will call the manufacturer and get them emailed to me and include them as an attachment when I send their report.

Tom

Hi,

I couldn't care less who makes it. They are really outside the scope by my contract but the wiring and plumbing is not so I check them and run them the same way I check and run a built-in dishwasher.

I'm only interested in knowing if the danged thing works ('cuz it's a permanently installed/fixed appliance) and whether it's properly wired and plumbed and leak-free. I warn folks up front that we aren't there for the "accessories" and that we'll turn them on to see if they work, will check to ensure that they are properly plumbed and wired, but won't guarantee them beyond the time it takes to get in my car and back out of the driveway. Folks seem to get that.

Yung fills them all to at least two inches above the jets and then fires 'em up. If a jet or two isn't working and she can't figure it out, she reports it to me; if it won't circulate for beans, she reports it to me; if it won't drain, she reports it to me; etc..

Because of the potential liability involved, if she sees goop come out of the pipes, she reports that to me as well.

When I finally get to that part of the house I remove the access cover, check to see that the thing is properly plumbed and wired (from what I can tell by looking through a 1ft. by 1ft. door), make sure it isn't leaking into the area beneath, and that it's GFCI protected.

We tell them not to use it until they sanitize it and leaks, poor circulation, jets that don't work, sloppy wiring, sloppy plumbing, poor water volume, poor drainage, etc. are reported in either the plumbing or electrical sections, depending on which applies.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Brandon Whitmore]

Actually, the contractors don't install the tub lines. That all happens at the tub factory and is governed by an ANSI standard that allows 1-1/2 fluid ounces per jet & suction fitting. So even a small tub with only four jets & one suction fitting is allowed to retain 7-1/2 ounces of water. Pretty nasty. If you're looking for a place to assign blame, start with ANSI.

Thanks for the info. Guess I should have said manufacturing dudes. Sounds like some changes need to be made. My Jacuzzi tub for the day had some pretty cool crud shoot out of the jets........

[msteger]

I see the black gunt all the time when I run jetted tubs and in my default comment for jetted tubs, I already have a comment recommending to disinfect the jetted tub prior to usage using dishwasher detergent. I've used that comment for years and in the same comment I also note if there is an access panel for the motor/plumbing and if the motor is GFCI protected. Just seems like the right thing to do.

As far as heat exchangers go, the few furnaces that I run into that you can actually see the heat exchanger, I take a look to see what I can see. I know that most of it I can't see without taking the thing apart. When I don't see service records indicating service within the past 12 months, I recommend a thorough clean/service by a qualified HVAC tech.

Sometimes it does sound, even though Barry is a home inspector, that is throws fellow inspectors under the bus by some of his comments. We all know that most of the heat exchangers we run across are out of our view, and we're only seeing maybe 10%. I see alot of newer hi-efficient gas furnaces and there isn't much of the heat exchanger to see there.

[mthomas1]

In addition to reporting visibly contaminated discharge from the jets if it's present, I routinely do two things to deal what the jetted tub issues:

1) I verbally explain to clients that jetted tubs require regular cleaning, and more frequently than they might expect.... that "for example Jacuzzi's instructions state that "for best results... we recommend that you purge your whirlpool bath after each use."

2) At every property with the jetted tub, a similar statement goes into the FYI section of the report, recommending cleaning according to the manufacturers operating instructions prior to first use. that way if somebody wants to start a fight over contamination of the jetted tub, the will be fighting with the manufacturers written instructions, not a home inspectors opinion.

If I really want to hammer home the point, this graphic in included.

Download Attachment: cleaning-ijacuzzi-500.jpg

96.82 KB

[kurt]

Just a thought......

How much trouble can an HI get into if they simply run the tub and report on functionality?

For one thing, how is anyone going to prove anything about crud in a tub? Was it there before or after closing? No one can prove anything about anything relative to crud in a tub.

Screw Barry and his weird ideas..........he's almost as crazy as Mike Holmes.

[Chad Fabry]

I won't run the damn things. I don't want to aerosolize the black funk and breathe it in. I'm just as reluctant to stick my hand through black funk to drain the tub.

It's in my contract. "I don't operate hydromassage bath tubs." I'll fill it and then leave the area so the client can turn it on. Usually though, after I explain why, they also opt out on the testing.

Barry's way off base on the cleaning; even after 30 minutes in 4% sodium hypochlorite a living bio film can, and likely will, remain in the pipes.

[Brandon Whitmore]

Do any of you have any good articles/ info. I can look into regarding the dangers with these tubs. (bacteria, etc.). I have done a google search using the AMA+ Jacuzzi tubs, etc. and can't find any studies.

Thanks.......

[hausdok]

Google staph infection whirlpool tubs and you'll find everything you need.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Brandon Whitmore]

Thanks Mike.