How bad is this roof?

[Darren]

I don't get to see a lot of wood roofs; here's one I did today.

Everyone involved in this transaction stated the roof was inspected and given two thumbs up on lasting another 20 years (it's currently 19 years old)

I told my client there are problems; worn, curled, damaged and missing materials. I also said it looks like it was never maintained and she should have a roofer who deals with wood roofs come out to evaluate it.

I'm thiniking it's pretty bad; what do you guys say?

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[Robert Jones]

Darren,

Definitely not the worst I have seen, but it does require repair. It sounds like the usual selling agent speak on the roof inspection. Did you ask if the person that did the inspection put it on paper? I would recommend to my clients to have a qualified roofing contractor evaluate, repair and treat(stain) the roof. 20+ years of life left is nuts by the way. That type of roofing material is doing well to make it to 25 years(total).

[Chris Bernhardt]

Darren, judging by the pics that roof is toast. Call for replacement.

Chris, Oregon

[Jim Katen]

I don't get to see a lot of wood roofs; here's one I did today.

Everyone involved in this transaction stated the roof was inspected and given two thumbs up on lasting another 20 years (it's currently 19 years old)

I told my client there are problems; worn, curled, damaged and missing materials. I also said it looks like it was never maintained and she should have a roofer who deals with wood roofs come out to evaluate it.

I'm thiniking it's pretty bad; what do you guys say?

I wasn't aware that anyone in NJ knew how to install shake roofs. After looking at your pictures, my opinion is unchanged.

On day one, the installer put the felt interlayment in the wrong place. He aligned it with the butt of the subsequent course so that the interlayment was exposed at every keyway. That's wrong. He should have placed each piece of interlayment farther up the course, at a point equal to twice the weather exposure.

The unfortunate result of his mistake is that the felt is worn away to nothing in the keyways. Now, instead of two layers of felt over every square inch of the roof, there's only one. That's risky. And it's impossible to fix at anything approaching a reasonable cost.

The shakes themselves aren't too bad. There's a bit of butt rot, some splits, some weathered & lacy shakes, & some missing shakes, but all of that could probably be repaired for $1,500 -$2,000 depending on the size of the roof. (*If* there were a roofer in Jersey who knew how.) The felt issue simply isn't repairable.

I'd tell them not to waste a dime on repair or maintenance here. Throw all of the money at a new roof now.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Chris Bernhardt]

The main criteria for condeming the roof for me was the degree of splitting of the shakes, but there are plenty of secondary issues (butt rott, wear thru, messed up interlayment, etc.). Anyone trying to make repairs will only cause more shakes to splinter with every step they make, leaking will follow.

With the butt rot, it's not the rot in the butt, but the infection it tends to cause in the shake underneath. The rot also aids splintering, however not the primary cause of it.

What I do is count up how many shakes I think need replacing. There's 40 to a bundle and every bundle I count as about $150 shakes & labor. After three bundles or so, I usually stop counting if it looks like there's a few more bundles to go and start justifying the roofs replacement. I use the installation criteria from the Cedar Shake & Shingle Bureau (A lot of roofers I know don't and they make up their own criteria).

I hate shake roofs myself, the only purpose of the shakes is to keep the underlayment pinned down so the wind doesn't lift it and blow rain in underneath[].

When repairs are advisable, I tell clients to find a roofer who loves shake roofs, cause he's the only one likely to make proper repairs. Anyone else, particularly asphalt shingle guys, will either condem it or make incomplete and half ass repairs using metal shingles, etc.

Chris, Oregon

[Richard Moore]

On day one, the installer put the felt interlayment in the wrong place. He aligned it with the butt of the subsequent course so that the interlayment was exposed at every keyway....

I don't see that in Darren's third photo so I wonder if what we are seeing in the first two is a localized...ummm..."repair"? (tough to say that without laughing)

Everyone involved in this transaction stated the roof was inspected and given two thumbs up on lasting another 20 years (it's currently 19 years old)

Which only proves that "everyone" doesn't have a clue.

[Garet]

On day one, the installer put the felt interlayment in the wrong place. He aligned it with the butt of the subsequent course so that the interlayment was exposed at every keyway....

I don't see that in Darren's third photo so I wonder if what we are seeing in the first two is a localized...ummm..."repair"? (tough to say that without laughing)

It's there, the same as the other photos. Look towards the lower left side.

[Kyle Kubs]

I wasn't aware that anyone in NJ knew how to install shake roofs. After looking at your pictures, my opinion is unchanged.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Hey now, be nice. NJ is not without it's craftsman, we're just busy hiding from all the NY yuppies that want it all for nothing... Case in point.

http://www.alper-enterprises.com/index.html

Darren, if you want a good local craftsman to throw at them or use for the future, try; Kasharian in Hackettstown. Though I agree with Jim & Chris, Cost/benefit of repair just doesn't balance out.

The wood itself looks pretty clean, no moss, fungus, algae, was there a Copper ridge or something?

[Richard Moore]

It's there, the same as the other photos. Look towards the lower left side.

OK...possibly. Even blown up and lightened, it's tough to say whether I'm looking at roof crud (technical term) or worn out felt at the keys. There are some areas with good sized gaps that don't show any indications of "low" felt, so I'm not sure.

In any case, I might give the roof a 20 minute certification although that warranty is void if it rains.

[Jim Katen]

I wasn't aware that anyone in NJ knew how to install shake roofs. After looking at your pictures, my opinion is unchanged.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Hey now, be nice. NJ is not without it's craftsman, . . .

I meant no insult. It's just that shake roofs seem to be rather rare in the northeast. (I've lived & worked in CT, NY, VT, MA, & DC. I could probably count the number of shake roofs that I've seen in those states on one hand.) As with any rare material or technique, the contractors don't quite know what to do with them. (Of course, shingles are a different story.)

In contrast, shakes were the roofing material of choice in the Pac NW for most of the 70s, 80s, & 90s. When I first started inspecting, I could go for days, and sometimes weeks, seeing *only* shake roofs.

My opinion of them is the same as Chris's. They're expensive and they only look good and last well if you invest in constant maintenance. Otherwise, they end up looking like the one in Darren's picture.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Jim Morrison]

OK, I thought I knew all about wood roofs. I know all about butt rot, but what, pray tell, is a 'lacy shingle' Lord Katen?

[Jim Katen]

OK, I thought I knew all about wood roofs. I know all about butt rot, but what, pray tell, is a 'lacy shingle' Lord Katen?

In Darren's third picture, the two lower left shakes are lacy. Actually, they're beyond lacy, they have big gaping holes in them.

Lacy is what happens to a shingle when its surface is weathered away to the point where the few remaining wood fibers form a lace-like lattice that you can actually see through.

It might be a regional term. The roofers up here use it, but I've never heard the term outside of the Pac NW. Has anyone else?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[kurt]

Here, we just call that shitholed.

I kinda like the sound of "lacy"......

[ghentjr]

OK, I thought I knew all about wood roofs. I know all about butt rot, but what, pray tell, is a 'lacy shingle' Lord Katen?

She is the nurse that applies the ointment to cure butt rot.

[Steven Hockstein]

Hi Darren,

If you look at the roof just from a cost vs. benefit basis it may be a better decision to replace the roof. Even if you can repair this roof, it will be an ongoing maintenance effort that will be expensive. Of course this is completely ignoring the aesthetic and historic signficance (if any) of the current roof.

Some of the 1960's-1980's houses around here have wood roof shingles/shakes installed directly over plywood sheathing with no provisions for ventilation. (there is a large development off of Sussex Turnpike in Morris Township with this type of installation). Those roofs are junk and need to be replaced.

My experience is that the only people giving "Thumbs up" on that roof are the sellers and their agents. Ask them for a 20 year written warranty from a reputable roofer and see what happens!

Decent wood shingle and slate roofing contractors are few and far between around here.

You did the right thing.

Regards,

Steve

[hausdok]

Hi,

I pretty much stayed out of this one to this point because my other northwest brethren have already commented appropriately. However, I need to point out that a solid deck under a shake roof is perfectly appropriate, and may even be preferred over skip, in areas where you'll see wind-driven snow; it's just necessary to ensure that the roof deck is properly ventilated and eave protection needs to be used at least 36-inches from the eaves and 24-inches from sidewalls.

Skip, cedar breather or a latticework of battens is preferred in areas of high humidity where the roof can't dry out between wetting. Here in the Seattle region and in the deep south and southern easter seaboard, where there is a lot of humidity, are areas where skip is much better than a solid deck. My experience in New Jersey, where I have relatives, is that though it gets humid in the summertime the air there is pretty dry in the winter and springtime and I don't know that a solid deck would be detrimental to a properly installed shake roof.

If you'd like to learn more about application techniques for shake and shingle roofs, visit the Cedar Bureau's website and download a copy of their Installation and Maintenance Manual.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

P.S.

Tain't no way in hell that cover is going to last another 20 years. The laciness and ruined felts that Jim notes was probably caused by indiscriminate pressure washing, which essentially means that there are plenty of holed shakes up there and some that are paper thin at the butts. Unless they've got a really good shake maintenance company that knows how to properly do annual cleaning and shake maintenance/spot replacement, expect it to leak like a sieve before too much longer and require replacement within the next 5-6 years.

[Steven Hockstein]

Hi,

I pretty much stayed out of this one to this point because my other northwest brethren have already commented appropriately. However, I need to point out that a solid deck under a shake roof is perfectly appropriate, and may even be preferred over skip, in areas where you'll see wind-driven snow; it's just necessary to ensure that the roof deck is properly ventilated and eave protection needs to be used at least 36-inches from the eaves and 24-inches from sidewalls.

Skip, cedar breather or a latticework of battens is preferred in areas of high humidity where the roof can't dry out between wetting. Here in the Seattle region and in the deep south and southern easter seaboard, where there is a lot of humidity, are areas where skip is much better than a solid deck. My experience in New Jersey, where I have relatives, is that though it gets humid in the summertime the air there is pretty dry in the winter and springtime and I don't know that a solid deck would be detrimental to a properly installed shake roof.

If you'd like to learn more about application techniques for shake and shingle roofs, visit the Cedar Bureau's website and download a copy of their Installation and Maintenance Manual.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

P.S.

Tain't no way in hell that cover is going to last another 20 years. The laciness and ruined felts that Jim notes was probably caused by indiscriminate pressure washing, which essentially means that there are plenty of holed shakes up there and some that are paper thin at the butts. Unless they've got a really good shake maintenance company that knows how to properly do annual cleaning and shake maintenance/spot replacement, expect it to leak like a sieve before too much longer and require replacement within the next 5-6 years.

Mike,

You are right. I was making reference to improperly vented attics and specifically to a large development of houses near Darren where the wood shake roofs all failed. The photo looks like one of those roofs.

Unfortunately there are not many builders or roofers around here that have the skill to properly install wood shake roofs.

Regards,

Steve

[Kyle Kubs]

I wasn't aware that anyone in NJ knew how to install shake roofs. After looking at your pictures, my opinion is unchanged.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Hey now, be nice. NJ is not without it's craftsman, . . .

I meant no insult. It's just that shake roofs seem to be rather rare in the northeast. (I've lived & worked in CT, NY, VT, MA, & DC. I could probably count the number of shake roofs that I've seen in those states on one hand.) As with any rare material or technique, the contractors don't quite know what to do with them. (Of course, shingles are a different story.)

In contrast, shakes were the roofing material of choice in the Pac NW for most of the 70s, 80s, & 90s. When I first started inspecting, I could go for days, and sometimes weeks, seeing *only* shake roofs.

My opinion of them is the same as Chris's. They're expensive and they only look good and last well if you invest in constant maintenance. Otherwise, they end up looking like the one in Darren's picture.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Oh I didn't get insulted at all. Just a little friendly posturing. [] Sad truth is you're mostly right. There are some areas here where old wood roofs are/where very common, much more shingles than shakes but if you know what historic areas to go to you can find quite a few of them. Not fair though, you guys have the Western Red Cedar there. We get a lot more White Cedar coming down from Canada, it's just not as good unless someone cuts a little too close to an old growth area.

Actually there is/was a lot more slate here then wood, which I prefer. Unfortunately with our proximity to Pennsylvania the most accessible slate was the poorest and most have or are failing. Even worse many of the old affluent towns where you find houses over 100 years old are now run down slums with what were beautiful huge old houses turned into multi, and I do mean MULTI family dwellings or boarding houses, or even better, crack houses...[:-weepn]

[Darren]

I would like to thank everyone for their responses and opinions. When something is un-familiar, it’s good to know you guys are around.

Here’s a little background on this inspection. The house is located in Bernardsville, Original construction about 1960. Completely renovated in 1990.

The seller bought it about 18 months ago and his inspector requested further review, that’s where the two thumbs up came from. Another buyer had it inspected about a month ago but backed out for unknown reasons (maybe something to do with the roof?)

The buyer just sold a horse farm in Bedminster; she just went thru replacing wood shakes on her house several years ago and knows a wood roofer. I asked her to keep me posted on what his opinion is.

To answer some questions; No copper ridge; Yes, plywood sheathing with inadequate attic vents (only 3 gable vents & 1 gable fan).

In 2005, another addition (2nd fl rear upper dormer) was added. They left the outline of the roof with about a half-foot wide of shingles. This area slopes down to a wall and stops; during the inspection I found the inside corner trim rotted out. Someone tried caulking, probably after some water entry into the bathroom below. Very poor design or some really bad on site decisions.

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From the patio looking up...

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From a 2nd floor window looking down.