When is a bedroom a bedroom

[MMustola]

I am having a disagreement with a Realtor who also claims to be a expert builder.

Here is the situation. The basement a finished walkout with about 2000 sf of living space. The furnace and water heater are in the bedroom closet. This closet is an unfinished 10 x 10 room. I called this out as a problem do to drawing combustion air from a bedroom. There furnace is a cat 4 and is not the problem but the water heat is.

Here is the disagreement. The Realtor/builder says I am correct except that the room is not a bedroom so it's ok. The room looks like a bedroom to me. It has an attached bathroom and a proper egress window. The Realtor claims that since there is no clothes closet it is not a bedroom.

Heres my question. The Realtor/ builder claims that the code says that for a room to be a bedroom it must have a closet. I do not believe that is true. I don't ever remember seeing that in the code before. Now the room does have a closet, it is just unfinished, has no clothes rod, and only contains the furnace and water heater. Now the Realtor wants to debate weather this room is closet. The only question I have is, does the IRC require a room to have a closet to be a bedroom.

[Brandon Whitmore]

NO

[Les]

depends on the jurisdiction. I really do not know if the IRC has a requirement, but I believe there is a HUD requirement of: doors and windows, electrical outlets, source of heat and a closet. The local tax appraiser uses that definition as well as other specific requirements; cubic air space, access, etc.

[Jeremy]

A bedroom is a living area with a bed. Not all living areas are suitable for sleeping areas (bedrooms). If it is not suitable for a sleeping area, don't call it a bedroom.

I think the notion that a bedroom has to have a closet comes from the NAR for the purposes of marketing a listing.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by MMustola

. . . The only question I have is, does the IRC require a room to have a closet to be a bedroom.

There's no such requirement in the IRC.

If he believes that this is true, ask him to cite his source.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Jeremy]

It looks like the space containing the water heater would need a self closing door with solid weather strip with combustion air directly from outdoors. Unless it is a direct vent unit. Read G2406.2

[hausdok]

Hi,

Why don't you simply ask the builder nicely to provide you with that particular code citation so that you'll have it for future reference and can avoid that kind of confusion with another builder. Let him find it for you; if he can't find it, he'll realize that he's talking through his hat.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Tom Raymond]

Mark,

Rephrase your argument and you can't lose. Ask the realtor/builder why it was configured to be used as a bedroom, a bath and basement egress are not cheap features, if it was not intended for that use. The IRC calls these spaces Sleeping Rooms now if it is likely that someone will be sleeping there. If it is not practical that the space be used or considered for a sleeping room than the Schmo is right, but he built in a bath and egress so it was definately intended as a sleeping room if it's marketed that way or not.

Tom

[Chad Fabry]

HUD requires closets in bedrooms of manufactured homes. If it's not a manufactured home there is no requirement for a closet. tell the REALTOR it's 'grandfathered" that oughta liven things up.

[StevenT]

You stated your case. If the realtor disagrees, just look at the approved plans... or look at the ML listing.

[MMustola]

The Realtor/builder is not the guy who built the house. The house is seven years old and the living space in the basement was created about 3 years ago. I can tell that there were no permits involved because of the number of basic code violations.

Of course the MLS lists this room as a bedroom. The Realtor is just trying to justify not helping the buyer correct the problem. When he first tried to tell me a room needed a closet to be a bedroom and he knew this because he has built hundreds of homes I was very nice and said just point me to the section of the code that he referring to and I would be glad to look it up. He just stammered and keep repeating that fact that he built hundreds of homes so he just knew it. This was all in front of the client. The exchange was pleasant but even the client could tell he was full of crap.

[Steven Hockstein]

According to the IRC (Inane Realtor Code):

Section 101-Bedrooms

Section 1.01.1:

A bedroom is called a bedroom when it helps the sale of the house and adds to the commission (See Exception Below).

Section 1.01.1. A (Exception to 1.01.1):

A bedroom is not a bedroom if it negatively affects the ability to sell the house and/or reduces the value by calling it a bedroom.

Section 1.01.2:

Calling a room a bedroom is completely independent of all other codes or rules.

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Steven Hockstein

According to the IRC (Inane Realtor Code):

Section 101-Bedrooms

Section 1.01.1:

A bedroom is called a bedroom when it helps the sale of the house and adds to the commission (See Exception Below).

Section 1.01.1. A (Exception to 1.01.1):

A bedroom is not a bedroom if it negatively affects the ability to sell the house and/or reduces the value by calling it a bedroom.

Section 1.01.2:

Calling a room a bedroom is completely independent of all other codes or rules.

Steven that right on[:-slaphap[]

[StevenT]

So the instead of arguing code, in your report, describe/mention that the room is not for the purpose of a bedroom; because.... You can also include the number of bedrooms, in the house description. Of course do not include this room in the count.

Now you have informed your client, you have done your job.

[Mike Lamb]

If you have reason to believe it is or will be used as a bedroom. Cite your concerns and f*ck all the noise.

The area in my photo is a bedroom and it poses serious problems for the one sleeping there.

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[hausdok]

Originally posted by MMustola

This was all in front of the client. The exchange was pleasant but even the client could tell he was full of crap.

OK,

I guess I don't understand why you're even wasting mental energy on this; the builder says that room is not a bedroom and the client knows it shouldn't be used as a bedroom. So, unless it was advertised as a bedroom and the client thinks it's supposed to be a bedroom there's really no dispute.

Even if it was advertised as a bedroom and the client thought it was, that's got nothing to do with us beyond making sure that the client understands why it shouldn't be used as a bedroom. At that point, the argument over whether it is or is not a bedroom is something for an appraiser and the realtors and the client to work through, because then the home has been advertised with more bedrooms than it actually has. Since the builder maintains it is not a bedroom, I'm guessing that he never advertised it as such.

Once I've given the client the information I'm supposed to, I couldn't care less whether the client accepts or rejects some lame argument made by the builder/realtor, as long as I'm solidly confident that the information I gave the client is accurate.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[MMustola]

Mike, I completely agree with you. I spent more time talking about it here then I did with the client and

Realtor. I almost never get into debates like this with

Realtors or sellers, I just state my case and move on.

It was advertised as a bedroom and the client was asking for the situation to by fixed.

[RickSab]

Only appraisal rules require a closet for a room to be considered a bedroom. However in Illinois a room below grade should only be considered part of a finished or unfinished basement. Appraisal rules have no bearing on our inspections.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by RickSab

Only appraisal rules require a closet for a room to be considered a bedroom. However in Illinois a room below grade should only be considered part of a finished or unfinished basement. Appraisal rules have no bearing on our inspections.

So how do appraisers deal with antique houses that have no closets in the bedrooms?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[kurt]

Up until right about now, they'd do what WaMu told them to do.

MAI Appraisers, as in, "Made As Instructed".

[Chad Fabry]

Only appraisal rules require a closet for a room to be considered a bedroom. However in Illinois a room below grade should only be considered part of a finished or unfinished basement. Appraisal rules have no bearing on our inspections.

I promise you the appraisers in my area are under no such delusion. Bottom line: Conventional and modular homes have no requirement to have a closet in a bedroom.

Armoires rule.

[msteger]

But we haven't talked about privacy violations yet.

[Jeff Remas]

What is the house listed as on the MLS sheet. How many bedrooms and which ones are bedrooms.

The amount of bedrooms is either what is listed by the realtor and seller or in the case of new construction, what the plans label them as or what the AHJ deems a bedroom to be. Normally it needs a closet and the room you are describing is not a closet, it is a utility/mechanical room.

Seems pretty simple to me.

[msteger]

Isn't a heat source also a requirement?