Apollo HydroHeat -- known problems?

[oneleaf]

Hello,

This is a great resource for Apollo Hydroheat systems. I wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts on what I should do in my situation.

We have an Apollo Hydroheat system and the water heater is original and probably over 15 years old. There are no leaks yet. It is used for both space heating and hot water. I have had to replace the expansion tank a few years back.

This heater has never served us well in the winters in regards to showering. We can only get a hot enough shower if we use it immediately after the water heater has finished a heating cycle. We have to either listen for it to turn on or even instigate it by running hot water for a few minutes for it to kick on and then wait for it to finish heating. And then shower.

It has a Sparco Mixing valve that is stuck (we did unscrew the set screw and tried turning it every way possible).

A plumber came by to take a look and we are looking at $250-$300 to replace the mixing valve and some parts. But he said it may not fix the problem because the heater is so old and has lost capacitance.

Changing the water heater would cost something like $3000. I think this may be worth it our water heater is near the end of its life. Without any leaks yet, would you recommend replacing it at this time? I believe we would go with a Bradford unit which he says he has replaced Apollos with with good success. Is this the most cost effective solution?

I read this article here: http://calgaryhydronicssolutions.wordpr ... placement/

It mentions sanitation issues with mixing the bathing water with the space heating water. But since the Apollo heater has pipes on both the top and sides, isn't the Apollo currently isolating the bathing and space heating water? I was just curious whether we have been bathing in unsanitary water all this time! I wasn't sure if that article was talking about only certain styles that don't apply to my case. In any case, I hope the Bradford would also isolate the water adequately?

Thanks for any advice on the best way to handle this situation. I am tempted to replace the mixing valve but would rather just take care of the whole replacement at this time if it is recommended. Thanks!

[Veronica]

Thank goodness for this site! I had a tech out yesterday to make sure that my HVAC was in good working order. He went out back to check on the water heater and professed that it was on it's last legs and indicated that it was past it's life expectancy (there was a date of 1994 on it) and he said he was concerned that it (the waterheater) would burst at any moment (I haven't experienced any signs that there is an actual problem). If I get this water heater replaced, what kind of price am I looking at? It says 72 gallon capacity but my home is only 1240 square feet and I'm the only one living in the home. Should I try and find a similar gallon size or would something smaller work? I'm really lost here and I could use some help. Thanks!

[Jim Katen]

Thank goodness for this site! I had a tech out yesterday to make sure that my HVAC was in good working order. He went out back to check on the water heater and professed that it was on it's last legs and indicated that it was past it's life expectancy (there was a date of 1994 on it) and he said he was concerned that it (the waterheater) would burst at any moment (I haven't experienced any signs that there is an actual problem). If I get this water heater replaced, what kind of price am I looking at? It says 72 gallon capacity but my home is only 1240 square feet and I'm the only one living in the home. Should I try and find a similar gallon size or would something smaller work? I'm really lost here and I could use some help. Thanks!

Your water heater is, indeed, probably past it's design life, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to burst at any moment. I've seen these suckers go for 40 years. And while bursting is possible, it's very rare. In most cases, they dribble for some time. If there's a drain pan under the water heater, you might consider just waiting until it starts to leak. Of course, it'll probably happen at the worst possible time (the day before Christmas?) and you'll be forced to make the replacement quickly, without having time to plan for the repair.

That said, whether or not you decide to replace the water heater proactively is up to you. Make the decision based on your own personal tolerance for risk.

If the system has been working well for you up until now, then when you replace it, be sure to replace it with another heater that has the same capacity in terms of gallons and btu/hr (or kw, if it's electric). Going with a smaller tank wouldn't provide any economy.

When you decided to replace it, shop around to find a tech that you trust and that you feel communicates well. As usual, avoid the low bidder.

[Veronica]

Thank goodness for this site! I had a tech out yesterday to make sure that my HVAC was in good working order. He went out back to check on the water heater and professed that it was on it's last legs and indicated that it was past it's life expectancy (there was a date of 1994 on it) and he said he was concerned that it (the waterheater) would burst at any moment (I haven't experienced any signs that there is an actual problem). If I get this water heater replaced, what kind of price am I looking at? It says 72 gallon capacity but my home is only 1240 square feet and I'm the only one living in the home. Should I try and find a similar gallon size or would something smaller work? I'm really lost here and I could use some help. Thanks!

Your water heater is, indeed, probably past it's design life, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to burst at any moment. I've seen these suckers go for 40 years. And while bursting is possible, it's very rare. In most cases, they dribble for some time. If there's a drain pan under the water heater, you might consider just waiting until it starts to leak. Of course, it'll probably happen at the worst possible time (the day before Christmas?) and you'll be forced to make the replacement quickly, without having time to plan for the repair.

That said, whether or not you decide to replace the water heater proactively is up to you. Make the decision based on your own personal tolerance for risk.

If the system has been working well for you up until now, then when you replace it, be sure to replace it with another heater that has the same capacity in terms of gallons and btu/hr (or kw, if it's electric). Going with a smaller tank wouldn't provide any economy.

When you decided to replace it, shop around to find a tech that you trust and that you feel communicates well. As usual, avoid the low bidder.

Thanks! I feel a lot better about this. For now until I see an actual problem, I'm going to wait a while before replacing the water heater; however, I am going to write up a contingency emergency plan, just in case.

[jmk]

My advice? Go with a larger-than-you-think-you-need water tank with a longer-than-you-think-you-need warranty. PAN EVERYTHING, even under the air handler. (You'll find leaks more quickly & easily this way.) Go with a larger expansion tank than you need, too.

On the expansion tank, I don't know what the law is in other states, but to be up to code in IL, you need to have a back double check valve installed. That requires an expansion tank so the water has somewhere to go when the heated molecules expand (since that valve prevents the expanding water from going back into the external water source). I replaced my expansion tank last year because the bladder went (causing the temperature release valve on the water heater to do its job several times a day). If you are doing any new work, make sure you're getting up to code while you're at it.

I've included a picture of my piping below.

Hope this helps!

-- jmk

*In addition to panning, I have a funnel under the water heater's release pipe that's connected to a vinyl hose that leads straight to my drain. thus eliminating rusting of the outside of the tank. (It took me a while to get the new expansion tank installed since I needed to find someone to sweat copper for me [because the new tank was taller].)

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[Jim Katen]

My advice? Go with a larger-than-you-think-you-need water tank with a longer-than-you-think-you-need warranty. PAN EVERYTHING, even under the air handler. (You'll find leaks more quickly & easily this way.) Go with a larger expansion tank than you need, too.

When sizing the water heater, it's the btu's that matter - much more so than the gallons. The water is just a means of transferring the heat. Having lots of gallons won't do you much good if you don't have enough btus per hour.

Pans are nice if the water heater and the air handler are located in a place where leaks could cause damage but don't go nuts with them. Remember that you've got water pipes running all over your house and you don't put pans under ever joint in every pipe.

There's no point whatsoever in a larger expansion tank. Enough is as good as a feast.

[jmk]

You make a good point about not panning the pipes in the walls. I have had to replace the floor in my utility room ~twice~ because of heating system leaks (once the back corner from the heating coil, once in the back of the water heater)... and then a few months later my TP valve went (replaced under warranty)... and then a few months after that my expansion tank went. I do not have good water luck. The system was originally installed in '94, so it's reasonable that things should go, but at a certain point one is just done.

[ErikG]

Hey all. My Apollo unit is not blowing hot air. The pump is effectively bringing hot water from the WH to the air handler, and the water coming from the coils is cool, but the air coming from the vents is not warm. Any ideas on what might be the issue here. Thanks for your help.

[sswillow]

I have an Apollo HydroHeat system that is not blowing warm air. I had the Apollo water heater replaced 6 months ago with an AO Smith. It was connected up exactly the same as the Apollo. The HVAC company has spent many many hours trying to determine why there is no heat. They have replaced the pump, the system has been flushed, connections have been checked.

We are wondering if there is something specific with the AO Smith water heater, a valve or connection we are missing? You can feel the hot water in the pipe leaving the water heater, but half way to the wall, the pipe gets cool. We can get the coil to feel warm only if we have the release valve open and the water is running freely to the street. I'm a layman, so my terminology may be off. Trying to figure out what we are overlooking.

[hausdok]

Erik G.,

Your coil is probably clogged and needs to be removed and dipped or your system is air locked.

Sswillow,

If they cleaned the crud out of the coil when they serviced the system, your's could be air locked.

Pretty sure that when a hydro-heat guy fills those systems he puts a vacuum pump on it to suck out every vistage of air in the system. Think of it like when you lose the coolant from the radiator on your car and then refill it. If you've got a bunch of air trapped in the system the engine won't cool and it overheats because there's not enough coolant flowing through the system. With the hydro-heat you don't have to worry about it overheating but the circulator still has to deal with the trying to get water into a system that's full of trapped air.

This brings up the need to flush the crud out of water heaters annually - something that is especially important on these systems so you don't end up with coils that are packed with crud.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[sswillow]

Thanks Mike. The HVAC company came back out today. There is no release valve up in the attic. Being in a townhouse makes it more difficult. The last thing to do is to remove the coil and clean or replace. They said that's 8 hours of work since my blower and pump (that they just put in) will have to be removed. Also, if the coil has to be replaced, it's highly likely it will need to be custom made. They have another customer with the same symptoms and are going to service the coil on his system to see the results instead of continuing to rack up the hours with me and getting no results.

I'll update once I learn more.

[AHI in AR]

The thread that won't die...

[Marc]

Thanks Mike. The HVAC company came back out today. There is no release valve up in the attic. Being in a townhouse makes it more difficult. The last thing to do is to remove the coil and clean or replace. They said that's 8 hours of work since my blower and pump (that they just put in) will have to be removed. Also, if the coil has to be replaced, it's highly likely it will need to be custom made. They have another customer with the same symptoms and are going to service the coil on his system to see the results instead of continuing to rack up the hours with me and getting no results.

I'll update once I learn more.

I think I recognize the problem now: no offense but you need to change your HVAC service provider.

Marc

[bullcityccg]

Hello all!

This is a great thread and I hope it continues considering there's lots of older homes with this heating system. Anyhow! Getting a bit colder here in Durham so I raised the temperature of the water heater as pointed out to us by previous owners of the house we bought it from. Nifty system but wish ours was set up better in the townhouse (WH in "shed" out back and heat exchanger/blower in closet towards the front). Blah getting sidetracked, I noticed that there was a leak on the bottom of the water heater (State Select WH) and that there was actually water leaking out of it from a panel on the bottom. I've called around and keep getting quoted 1500+ to fix even though from what I've read, it's just a matter of replacing the water heater if there's nothing else wrong with the system right? And yeah it's a big IF and I understand that cheapest is not the best way to go with this considering it's a pretty big part of the house but $1500+ is a big chunk of change...

Here's a picture of the leak (panel under the thermostat control/pilot lighter) -

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[Marc]

I just replaced the leather cups at the bottom of my water well yesterday. I successfully tried it myself even though I had never pulled the suction line out before and didn't know what I was gonna find at the bottom of that pipe. I did it myself because the first three plumbers (well specialists) I called all gave the same quote: $350 to $375. My well was last service 8 to 10 years ago. I watched the guy somewhat and he finished within an hour. The 'seals' (AKA leather cups) that he changed were under $10 each online and two are needed. He charged $200.

How in the dickens can the first three plumbers I call give the same price, $350 to $375, for under $20 in parts and one hour labor to service my water well?

My home inspection clients often ask for a plumber referral and my answer is always the same: I know lots of plumbers but not a single good one. They're all out to git you.

Shop around for a plumber. Call every one of them if you have to. I changed my 30 gallon electric WH couple weeks ago for about $400. That included a new sharkbite crimping tool for the PEX pipe.

Marc

[Jim Katen]

Hello all!

This is a great thread and I hope it continues considering there's lots of older homes with this heating system. Anyhow! Getting a bit colder here in Durham so I raised the temperature of the water heater as pointed out to us by previous owners of the house we bought it from. Nifty system but wish ours was set up better in the townhouse (WH in "shed" out back and heat exchanger/blower in closet towards the front). Blah getting sidetracked, I noticed that there was a leak on the bottom of the water heater (State Select WH) and that there was actually water leaking out of it from a panel on the bottom. I've called around and keep getting quoted 1500+ to fix even though from what I've read, it's just a matter of replacing the water heater if there's nothing else wrong with the system right? And yeah it's a big IF and I understand that cheapest is not the best way to go with this considering it's a pretty big part of the house but $1500+ is a big chunk of change...

Find a tech who knows how to work on these systems. Ask him to confirm that the water heater is actually leaking and that you're not just seeing condensate. The ask him to carefully examine the coil at the air handler to see what kind of shape it's in. If it's in good shape and the water heater is really leaking, then get a new tank installed. $1,500 installed seems a tad high, but not a whole lot.

[sswillow]

Wanted to post an update in case anyone ever has my issue in the future. First, Marc was right, get another HVAC person. I actually had a couple more come out just to be sure. Turned out it was the pump all along. The first company damaged the first replacement pump during installation. Because the space is so small, the torch ended up burning the plastic inside the pump.

We learned that when replacing the pump there is no need to cut the pump out. Cutting the pump out just makes a ton of more work including having to weld/solder new connections. All you have to do is remove 4 hex bolts on the pump's case and just swap out the old pump guts for the new ones. It really is that easy. Would have been a 15 minute job as opposed to the countless hours that were spent.

[Marc]

Wanted to post an update in case anyone ever has my issue in the future. First, Marc was right, get another HVAC person. I actually had a couple more come out just to be sure. Turned out it was the pump all along. The first company damaged the first replacement pump during installation. Because the space is so small, the torch ended up burning the plastic inside the pump.

We learned that when replacing the pump there is no need to cut the pump out. Cutting the pump out just makes a ton of more work including having to weld/solder new connections. All you have to do is remove 4 hex bolts on the pump's case and just swap out the old pump guts for the new ones. It really is that easy. Would have been a 15 minute job as opposed to the countless hours that were spent.

Glad that it finally worked out for you.

Marc

[G3mini]

All the houses in our sub-division were built in the mid-80's and the contractor at that time used Apollo's in all the homes and townhouses. A number of the homes have replaced the heating/cooling units completely with newer more energy efficient HVAC units. The previous owner looks to have replaced the tank in 1991. It started pumping out very rusty red, hot water in 2009.

We had the only local Apollo HVAC/plumber in the area come take a look. He drained the entire tank 3 times (50 Gallons). and it still would produce Rusty-looking water. He said the only thing more he could do was to replace the tank. He did warn me that Apollo was looking like they were out of business or going that way soon and that I might wish to consider an alternative. However, A new HVAC was a $4-8k bill and the replacement tank was looking at $1-1.2k. Given my job situation at the time I couldn't afford to replace the entire HVAC and optioned for the new tank. Installed and all water is clear.

Fast forward a couple of year. The 30 year old Trane Air conditioner decided that no matter what I do, it was no longer going to allow me to duct-tape repair it any longer. My job situation had much improved at this time so I bit the bullet and had a new Trane heat-pump system installed. The installers closed off the hydroheat pipes and we have been using the water heater strictly for internal use now. Again, no problems enjoying the huge savings during the sweltering Central NC summers and the electric heating works except when the temps drop below 25F (which is VERY RARE, once or twice a year at most).

Fast forward a bit more to Fall 2014. The familiar rusty red water begins to return. Slightly at first, barely noticeable so I drained the tank myself. Figured it was due for a yearly drainage anyways. But after that the rust color began to worsen. I called out the repairman from 2009 and ask him to take a look. He did so as a courtesy and drained the tank while I was away at work. He called me back and told me he didn't see any issues but if the water was still rusty then we are in a situation where it would need to be replaced again.

Well unfortunately the water has remained rusty. And beginning last month the tank has begun to leak from underneath. It's not a lot but keep the outdoor storage shed's floor wet all the time. Oddly enough though since the leak started the water has become clearer, not clear but definitely not as rusty as this past Fall/Winter.

So, I have a Tank that is 2 months shy of 6 years old. I can't find any information on warranty for Apollo but was told at the time sale that the tank had a warranty (I believe he said 6 years). Admittedly I was clearly warned that Apollo may not be around to collect on that warranty. This brings me to my questions.

TL;DR

1. How long of a warranty does/did Apollo place on the tanks?

2. If they are out of business their website takes you to State Water Heaters, have they purchased Apollo?

2a. If so, does anyone know if they honor the warranties on Apollo tanks?

[Jim Katen]

I don't know the answers. Call State to find out.

[aoconnell]

Hello,

Another Apollo issue in Durham, NC. I'm assuming the whole system was installed in 1995 when the house was built. We replaced our Apollo water heater with a new Apollo unit ($1800) in Oct. 2013 when it started producing rusty water. Now the AC's not working. HVAC service contractor says we need to replace the Evap Coil on the Apollo System (3-ton) in the attic, but since they're no longer making replacement parts, we have to replace the attic system at $6500 (parts + labor). A few years back we had the freon refilled in the backyard unit, and that contractor said the entire system would probably go soon and we were looking at replacing the whole thing for about $7k. I'm wondering:

1) Is there really no way to replace the evap coil? Maybe a compatible part?

2) If the whole system - outside & attic - should be $7k, is $6500 fair for just the attic system?

3) I don't understand how the boiler system and AC are connected, but if there truly are no replacement part options for Apollo systems, are we better off (is it even possible?) to just replace the entire AC system - outside and attic - without replacing the boiler system since we just spent $1800 on the new heater? I'm guessing the outside unit isn't going to last much longer, if it even makes it through this summer.

We only plan to keep this house for another 2-3 years, so I'd like an economical option to "get us through." Thanks!

[Marc]

Increase the resale value of your home and gain a reliable AC for the next few years by replacing both indoor and outdoor sections with a new system - R410A, not R22 like you have now.

Unhook the water heater from the heating system and put in a giant jacuzzi. Enjoy!

Marc

[aoconnell]

Increase the resale value of your home and gain a reliable AC for the next few years by replacing both indoor and outdoor sections with a new system - R410A, not R22 like you have now.

Unhook the water heater from the heating system and put in a giant jacuzzi. Enjoy!

Marc

I wonder how much that would run us.....I have always wanted a jacuzzi!

[emerychris]

I am new to this forum, I recently replaced my water heater. After I did that I noticed that I have a Apollo heating system. I went with a Rheem 50gal from home depot. Since this I am not getting any hot water in the shower while the heater is on. Seems like the heater is taking up all the hot water. What do I need to do next? Will this water heater be able to work? Do I need a special water heater? Anyone who can point me in the right direction will help bacuse I am clueless on this situation. Really hope Jim Katen checks the forum today.

[MikeD]

I have a small unit located in my ceiling downstairs. I believe It to be a system by the name of Hydronic Heat - My water heater has an inlet and outlet on the side of it to feed the blower / air handler. I'm just having trouble finding any information on the unit. I've typed in the model number with no results. The furnace blower / air handler (I'm not too sure exactly what to call it) is stamped Apollo HydroHeat. Ive called numerous repair companies and with no luck since most wont touch the unit as I'm explaining it as a hydronic system. Its still blowing hot but just today started making a rattling noise and would rather it get fixed before I'm without heat at all. I'm even up for replacing It If I can find out what it is I'm exactly looking for.

I can't seem to upload a picture but heres whats on the sticker on the unit itself:

Model # : H 2418D 1GS

Serial # : G96812617

Fan Motor : 1/3

FLA : 5.00 Thermal Protected

MAX Ext. Static : .4 I.W.G.

Pump Motor HP : 1/25 FLA.

Water Coil: Hot Water Only, Max Temp 160, Max PSI 150.

Cooling Ref Coil: R22

Design Pressure: 300 PSI

I'm trying to figure out what exactly I'm looking for to replace the unit in the ceiling - My water heater is fine I just installed a Bradford White 2 months ago. I've done a lot of plumbing work so I'm pretty knowledgeable around that area, I will call my HVAC friend over once I buy this new unit, I'm just confused as if this is a furnace / blower / Air handler? I just want to be sure I'm buying the right thing when I do within the next week or so... or if they even make what I need anymore! It kind of scares me 5 HVAC companies I called don't even service this unit and my neighbor replaced hers through a company that is now out of business for 7,000$ which seems very high to me.