Idiot Roofer

[Brandon Whitmore]

I received a call from my Realtor today. She requested that I call the seller to explain my concerns with the roof.

I called the seller, who proceeded to tell me that his roofer had read my report, and told him that I should replace and repair at least part of it for him. The seller let me know that the roofer said that the only repairs that were needed were caused by me. Yeahhh

This is on a 5 year old home with a arch. comp. roof. (temp- about 78 deg) On many of my inspections of newer homes I will carefully peel up the edges of a couple of shingles to check for proper fasteners, fastener placement, etc.

What did I find when I peeled a couple of shingles up......... staples (not allowed). Also, improper staple placement.

This all came about because I told my clients that they needed to repair the improper starter course installation where the shingle joints on the starter/ first course were lining up.

I just figured the seller was confused so I called the roofer. I asked him what was said, and he actually started getting abusive/ irritable and told me I damaged the roof and would be responsible for repairs. (he was not the original roofer by the way). I stayed calm and let him know that on a hot day the shingle would seal right back down. He disagreed and said peeling up the shingle instantly damaged the shingle. I asked him for anything from a reptable source to back this up. We finally agreed to disagree. (10 minute conversation back and forth-- a little heated)

I then discussed the starter course issue with him. He told me that to try and fix this issue would just disturb the shingles and would cause more harm than good. I stayed calm and questioned him on it. He said that it had caused no problems up to now, and shouldn't in the future. I asked for a guarantee in writing, and he said he would tell my client's the same thing. Arghhh

I started wondering if I was crazy, so I called the most knowledgeable roofer I know in my area. At least he was with me.

Nothing like a pissing match in the morning to get the day going.

[Phillip]

Brandon,

I would tell my clients to get their own roofer out there to look at it and call the manufacturer to talk to them about it. If the starter strip is wrong it's still wrong whether it's leaking are not.

If you are going to peel back shingles which is your choice to do I would take a caulking gun with the proper type sealant and stick the shingles back down.

[Phillip]

The best roofer in the area did this according to the home owner which was my client. The roof was put on 4 months ago.

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[caryseidner]

Brandon,

I always love hearing that statement "It's caused no problem up to now". It makes me laugh.

Here's some verbiage from the NRCA Roofing & Waterproofing Manual (4th ed.):

Starter Course for Shingles

The starter course is applied directly over the underlayment or ice dam protection membrane along the downslope portion of the roof. Its primary purpose is to shed water that may migrate through the joints and cut-outs of the shingles in the overlying first course.

The seams need to be staggered.

[Tom Raymond]

OK, why would the roofer be upset about your comments if he didn't install the roof? Maybe he was just born an a$$hole...

Phillip, with regards to pic #2, it's obvious the boot wasn't replaced, but what exactly do you recommend? If it were my house I would relocate the service entrance to eliminate the mast penetration through the roof, might as well because to replace the boot, the service would have to be disconnected and the clamps and weatherhead removed. Around here you might get the utility to foot the bill if you needed to upgrade to triplex anyhow, but from the shadow on the roof it looks like that was already done.

Tom

[hausdok]

Originally posted by Tom Raymond

to replace the boot, the service would have to be disconnected and the clamps and weatherhead removed.

Tom

Not so. The same companies that make the one-piece boots also make two piece boots that can be installed around masts when the old boot is so trashed it needs to be cut off and thrown away.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Mark P]

Originally posted by caryseidner

Here's some verbiage from the NRCA Roofing & Waterproofing Manual (4th ed.):

If I were to buy one book on roofing is this the one to buy?

I'd like a good reference source to cover many different types of roof coverings.

[caryseidner]

Mark,

Yes, this is the roofers' bible. You can view the java version (5th ed.) online at www.nrca.net

They also sell the CD which is easier to work with IMO, but it's pricey.

[Brandon Whitmore]

Brandon,

If you are going to peel back shingles which is your choice to do I would take a caulking gun with the proper type sealant and stick the shingles back down.

The only concern I am aware of with properly peeling up shingles is the blow off potential. On newer shingles on a warm/ hot day the shingles pretty much seal right back down. I can't see how peeling up a corner is a leakage issue (unless you aren't careful and tear the seal off the shingle below), as the overlap and slope is what sheds the water. Water will run down at the joints and seep in behind the seal anyway's, that is why the fasteners should not be close to the seams/ joints. I agree with you that sealing down 3 tab shingles (if they don't self seal) would be a good idea due to blow- off issues, but I can't tell you the last time I saw a 30 year roof shingle blow off. (I'm sure it has happened).

I'm just throwing out my opinion/ take on this to see what others think, thanks for the reply Phillip.

Also, how many of you guy's out there will peel up shingles to check for proper fastener placement, etc.? Just making sure I am not the only one.

[caryseidner]

I would not make a habit of peeling back shingles. The potential for damage to the shingle is too great and unless you are prepared to correctly re-seal them, I think you are opening yourself up to liability for future damage.

[Jerry Simon]

Originally posted by caryseidner

I would not make a habit of peeling back shingles. The potential for damage to the shingle is too great and unless you are prepared to correctly re-seal them, I think you are opening yourself up to liability for future damage.

I've done it on about 6,000 houses. Never a complaint.

[hausdok]

Hi,

I think your taking this too far. The only way that a case for liability for future damage could be brought if it could be proven that the future damage is directly related to the specific shingle that one pried up. So, if the edge of the roof below that specific shingle were damaged they'd have a case to say, "Hey you, you've got to pay for replacement of the rotten decking and this shingle," but they could not possibly make him liable for damages that occur elsewhere on the roof.

I'd guess that about 40 to 50% of the roofs around here aren't properly sealed down and I routinely recommend having them hand sealed; nobody does it. The number of times I've actually seen damage other than a snapped-off shingle occur due to not being sealed down I can count on one hand out of many many thousands of roofs.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Bill Kibbel]

Brandon,

The roofer is a friend or relative of the seller. There's no other logical explanation. Anyone else would have taken the opportunity to sell a new roof.

[caryseidner]

I've looked under shingles that were not sealed too. That's no big deal. I was referring to shingles that are sealed down well. I would not try to loosen one of those shingles, particularly if they are older.

[Brandon Whitmore]

The roofer is a friend or relative of the seller. There's no other logical explanation. Anyone else would have taken the opportunity to sell a new roof.

That's the weird thing. The seller just ended up being caught in the middle of this. I think that either the roofer has had problems with inspector's in the past, or he is off his meds. There's no other logical explanation for the way he reacted as soon as I questioned him on it. Maybe he talked to the roof and the roof told him I hurt it...........

The seller just wanted for me to tell him what to do. He asked me if I would fix it, and then asked me for my roofer's number so he could get this taken care of. The seller was really polite/ cool over the phone and didn't really sound like he was upset or blaming me at all. He was just passing on the info. that his roofer told him.

It's definitely a first for me to have a contractor not want the work, and sound offended for being asked to do such a repair.

[Brandon Whitmore]

I've looked under shingles that were not sealed too. That's no big deal. I was referring to shingles that are sealed down well. I would not try to loosen one of those shingles, particularly if they are older.

It's definitely a judgement call on an older roof, especially on crap 3 tab. I will go around looking for a looser than typical or loose shingle, one near the top of the ridge, or one pretty well protected from moisture. Often I find enough other issues with a roof I will not even worry about checking for proper placement of fasteners. I probably find issues with 90% of the roof's I inspect, and that goes for new construction as well.

Question for others in the NW, when is the last time you saw a arch. comp. shingle blown off?

[Erby]

I'm not in the NW but just saw such yesterday on a 14 year old roof.

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Not to mention the spider web cracking.

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Even on the ridge shingles.

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Blow offs like that occur pretty regular around here in Central Kentucky.

[kurt]

I wouldn't call the roofer to "explain" myself. That's what the report is for.

[charlieb]

New construction last week

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New roof old house this week

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Just me and my wonder(ful) bar

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[Brandon Whitmore]

I'm not in the NW but just saw such yesterday on a 14 year old roof.

I stand by my statement that 3 tab is crap.............. anyone have any pictures of newer blown off architectural shingles.. shingles that are within 20 years old. (excluding natural disasters)

[Brandon Whitmore]

I wouldn't call the roofer to "explain" myself. That's what the report is for.

I didn't call the roofer to "explain myself".

I called the roofer to find out what was really said, since I figured the homeowner misinterpreted the discussion. The homeowner just happed to be right. I called the seller/ homeowner to ensure my client had the roof properly repaired as requested in the addendum.

[hausdok]

Originally posted by Brandon Whitmore

I'm not in the NW but just saw such yesterday on a 14 year old roof.

I stand by my statement that 3 tab is crap.............. anyone have any pictures of newer blown off architectural shingles.. shingles that are within 20 years old. (excluding natural disasters)

I wish I'd take pictures; several months ago I did a 6 year old house up at Snoqualmie ridge where huge chunks of the roof had had architectural-grade shingles that had been snapped off by the wind. As I sat up there on the ridge looking down at the mess, I looked around at the houses around me and noticed snapped off shingles everywhere - all architectural-grade; that neighborhood doesn't use 3-tab.

FWIW, 3-tab has been around for about 80 years in various forms and has worked just fine. I was taught roofing by my father and was weaned on 3-tab roofs long before architectural-grade shingles ever came on the scene. I know that those roofs lasted far longer than they were designed to last; it's easy to know that when you come from a town of 1100 people and everyone knows everyone else so anytime you screw up, everyone hears about it.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Erby]

I stand by my statement that 3 tab is crap.............. anyone have any pictures of newer blown off architectural shingles.. shingles that are within 20 years old. (excluding natural disasters)

See picture 1 in post #17 above.

[Brandon Whitmore]

See picture 1 in post #17 above.

I guess I can't recall seeing that style. Judging by the width of the shingle blown up, I would have called it 3 tab.

[Ed the Roofer]

Originally posted by Erby

I stand by my statement that 3 tab is crap.............. anyone have any pictures of newer blown off architectural shingles.. shingles that are within 20 years old. (excluding natural disasters)

See picture 1 in post #17 above.

That is either a Certainteed Horizon Shangle with an "Applique" which is an additional amount of asphalt for the slightly different color or the IKO brand of a similar style.

Both have had numerous lawsuits regarding the cracking issues through the applique layers.

The wrong material were used on the hip and ridge caps.

Ed