Minor cracks?

[AZHO]

Hi,

I have a question regarding cracks in a slab foundation. The cracks were hidden under the carpeting and heavy padding. Would a home inspector typically find these? We didn't really notice during the few times we went to the home duing the buying process. The homeowner disclosed "minor cracks - all concrete cracks" on the SPDS. We have also found a major repair to the sanitation line which was not disclosed. We are curious as to where the inspector will stand when this goes to court. He did note a crack near the fireplace and stated it was typical for a 20 year old home. It was not listed as a major concern. Should one crack have warranted more investigation by the inspector? What he didn't know was that the crack has already been patched and you could still feel it through the carpet. We felt the cracks immediately after moving in a removing our shoes. We hoped this was "typical settlement" but there has continued to be movement including cracking above doors which no longer close. This is all since the purchase in June 2007. We have no ill will toward the inspector but, obviously, this is a major problem.

So, the two questions are: Is the inspector liable since it was hidden by carpeting? Would anyone (qualified or not) call these "minor" cracks?

Thanks.

[kurt]

Liability is determined by a court of law. Impossible to say who's liable at this point.

Arizona has a number of very specific soil conditions that can greatly effect structure. These cracks could be minor, or they may indicate some greater problem. Knowing what I know about Arizona soils, I'd be pretty careful about calling any crack minor.

There's some Arizona fellas in here. What say the AZ inspectors?

[AZHO]

For what it's worth, I'm hoping that the HI's liability is very limited or nil as he is a good person with a great reputation. I'm of the opinion that the seller is the only bad apple due to the lack of disclosure. I just want to make sure that is the consensus as we move forward.

[Steven Hockstein]

From a NJ inspector-not a legal expert:

Based on your description it sounds more like a disclosure issue.

I do not remove my shoes and attempt to feel for concrete patches under thick padding that is covered with carpeting. Most houses have some minor cracks due to settlement. I think you will have a hard time blaming an inspector for an error if that was the only evidence of a problem at the time of the inspection.

I agree with Kurt that regional issues regarding soil conditions may come into play and you should consult with a local inspector.

[jon_ran]

Concrete does 2 things after it has been poured, it gets hard and it cracks. As Kurt said, you have expansive soil conditions there that we do not have here so you won't be able to get a real good answer from us. Minor cracks are usually of no concern, as concrete is expected to crack. A slab crack with displacement (ie. surface differences) or slab cracks that are drifting apart would not be considered minor.

Carpet and thick padding can hide lots of things and unless the crack is stepped on to feel the difference, it may not be discovered. As you said, you didn't know about it until you stepped on it without shoes. I don't want it to sound like I am trying to defend the inspector and say that he is not at fault, he may be, it depends on the circumstances.

There is a good chance that the sellers knew about this and purposely hid it under the carpet. People are very creative at trying to hide defects. There is also a chance that they thought that they were minor cracks as they disclosed. The cracks that were filled could have been done by the carpet installer without the owners knowledge.

[AZHO]

Thanks. The seller was the original owner and builder so I'd assume he had to know. We know for sure we have a disclosure issue with the seller. I was wondering if the term "minor" is acceptable based on your experience. We were shocked when we saw the large extensive patching. Is that normal with minor cracks?

[JEuriech]

Chad

You have already made reference to, "when this goes to court". Have you already contacted your home inspector and expressed your concerns with him? Has he had an opportunity before any repair work has been done to come out and look at the cracks? If not, this would be step 1.

All home inspectors in Arizona have to follow the state's Standards of Practice. You can read a copy at the following web address: http://www.btr.state.az.us/regulations/ ... ectors.asp Please note 3.1 General limitations: A. Inspections done in accordance with these Standards are visual, not technically exhaustive and will not identify concealed conditions or latent defects.

Also, you may want to go the Arizona Registrar of Contractors web site and download the Workmanship Standards for Licensed Contractors. This will give you an idea of the type of cracks that are acceptable on NEW homes. Keep in mind that you said your house was over 20 years old and additional settlement occurred after the inspection. http://www.azroc.gov/Downloads_menu.html

The Natural Resources Conservation Service web site has information on shrink/swell potential soils.

http://www.az.nrcs.usda.gov/

I don't think anyone can decide if these are minor or major cracks by looking at some pictures on the Internet. I would recommend that you talk with your home inspector first, or maybe get a second opinion from another home inspector familiar with the area.

Jeff Euriech

Peoria Arizona

[hausdok]

Hi,

One of the things I make very clear to my clients during the pre-inspection phase is that I don't have x-ray vision and that I can't see into walls and beneath carpets and slabs. Unless he was physically able to see something that would indicate to a reasonable person that there's a reason to have the carpeting pulled up to look at the slab beneath it, I doubt any experienced and competent inspector would have called it. Keep that in mind as you move forward.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[kurt]

FTR, after looking at the photos again, I greatly doubt that I would have "found" these cracks through carpet.

Personally, I think it would be unreasonable to think any inspector could find them.

Seller sounds like a bit of a dickhead, though.

[AZHO]

Thanks all. Jeff, I appreciate the links and advice you provided. I agree pictures may not tell the whole story, but I thought the almost footwide patch would be more compeling. But I would also be reluctant to base an opinion on a picture. No repair work has been completed to date as the cracking appears to be tied to a bad sewer line below the slab which will be a major repair (and has been repaired in the past - which wasn't disclosed). Do you service Yavapai?

Basically, we are waiting on a response from the seller now. I hate to get the HI stressed out before we know if we will need to go to court. Is it normal fro HI's to get called as an expert witness? I assume we would want him on our side to show that this was an act of concealment that even a home inspector would miss. Court is not something I am hoping for, but I want to get my ducks in a row now.

[randynavarro]

What everyone already has said. . .

The only thing I know about soils in Prescott is that its very dirty and I skinned a lot of knees and ate quite a bit of it growing up.

My folks still live there.

Best to you.

[Jim Katen]

The inspector *might* have been able to find the cracks but that doesn't mean that he *should* have been able to find them.

In my opinion, it's unreasonable to expect him to have found them.

This inspector shouldn't be an expert witness in this case, he's involved in it. That doesn't mean he can't provide you with litigation support though.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[AZHO]

Hi Randy. I think we were a couple years apart in high school here. I finished in 1985. Does your Mom happen to be involved with the school district?

[randynavarro]

Chad! Is that you!!

No, just kidding. . . I can't recall any Chad Calhouns. We've probably met before, though.

I'm '84. And yes, that's my mother. Tell her she's supposed to be slowing down in retirement years and spending more time with her grandkids.