Hardiplank Problems

[Greg Baker]

I built my house about seven years ago, and the paint started peeling off the prepainted hardy plank within 3 or 4 years of the instolation. Has anyone else had similar problems? Has somebody heard of other people having this problem?

[Nolan Kienitz]

Have you talked with the company that did the installation? Did they follow the J-H installation methods?

Have you talked directly with J-H?

In most cases with such cement-board siding it's failure is due to improper installation methods.

[thesidingexpert]

Check out the links to class action lawsuits filed against James Hardie and Certainteed

http://www.halunenlaw.com/news/2011/05/ ... ie-siding/

http://www.classaction.org/certainteed- ... iding.html

[gtblum]

Have you talked with the company that did the installation? Did they follow the J-H installation methods?

Have you talked directly with J-H?

In most cases with such cement-board siding it's failure is due to improper installation methods.

Is there really any remote chance of a contractor being able to "properly" install this siding?

Given the number of flaming hoops in the manual and having absolutely no control over how it's handled once it's shipped from the factory to the retailer and their yard help, it sure seems like the deck is stacked against them.

The do's, don'ts, shall's, shall not's, the number of men required to properly transport it, and all of the rest of the warnings, are enough to convince me to find something else. There's just too much.

When a contractor has to baby sit every piece of any product they're installing, they're losing money.

[Jim Katen]

Have you talked with the company that did the installation? Did they follow the J-H installation methods?

Have you talked directly with J-H?

In most cases with such cement-board siding it's failure is due to improper installation methods.

Is there really any remote chance of a contractor being able to "properly" install this siding?

Given the number of flaming hoops in the manual and having absolutely no control over how it's handled once it's shipped from the factory to the retailer and their yard help, it sure seems like the deck is stacked against them.

The do's, don'ts, shall's, shall not's, the number of men required to properly transport it, and all of the rest of the warnings, are enough to convince me to find something else. There's just too much.

When a contractor has to baby sit every piece of any product they're installing, they're losing money.

I see it installed correctly quite frequently.

Even when it's not installed correctly, it works just fine under practically any condition.

[Chad Fabry]

I see it installed correctly quite frequently.

Even when it's not installed correctly, it works just fine under practically any condition.

Me too. I haven't yet seen any sign of systemic failures. It does fail when installed stupidly at about the same rate as cedar that's installed stupidly.

[kurt]

I've never seen a problem with the stuff. I think it's great.

Problems, when uncovered, need solutions, i.e., money. Money doesn't come from contractors; it comes from the insurance underwriters of large corporations.

So, when there's a problem with resulting class action, it may or may not mean something about the material.

It means everything about how one might best obtain money to solve their problem.

[hausdok]

Have you talked with the company that did the installation? Did they follow the J-H installation methods?

Have you talked directly with J-H?

In most cases with such cement-board siding it's failure is due to improper installation methods.

Is there really any remote chance of a contractor being able to "properly" install this siding?

Given the number of flaming hoops in the manual and having absolutely no control over how it's handled once it's shipped from the factory to the retailer and their yard help, it sure seems like the deck is stacked against them.

The do's, don'ts, shall's, shall not's, the number of men required to properly transport it, and all of the rest of the warnings, are enough to convince me to find something else. There's just too much.

When a contractor has to baby sit every piece of any product they're installing, they're losing money.

I

see it installed correctly quite frequently.

Even when it's not installed correctly, it works just fine under practically any condition.

I can mostly agree with Jim on this. I am seeing it installed correctly in more and more new developments, but I have to admit that for years I've been forced to write it up for numerous minor oversights. Many of those errors were not errors in previous generations of the product and one could almost pin the installation method to a particular set of Hardi instructions. When it appears pretty clear to me that the installer is using a previous set of instructions that have been superceded, I let the client know that. I've pointed out many times on new homes when I've written up a particular issue on the product that years before I had not written that same issue up because at that time it was allowed by the manufacturer. I think it's important that buyers of newly constructed homes understand that construction processes are always in flux and that they need to be flexible and willing to do some homework and learn everything that they can about the products used in their new home - not just about how it's installed but how it must be maintained and how often.

A couple of years ago, I began attaching a copy of the most current set of JH instructions along with a copy of the best practices manual to every report where I found errors. I encouraged homeowners to share those documents with the site supers so that site supers could point out to their subs that they obviously weren't working off the most current set of instructions. Many of them did just that and every once in a while I'll get a call from a site super or a siding sub that wants to bemoan the fact that JH keeps changing their instructions. I simply point out to them that if it's possible for me to keep current on the instructions for the product, I'm sure they can too.

I think it's either been working or these large builders have been changing their subs; because most of them seem to be coming around and more and more new homes are either perfect installs or damned near perfect installs. Now, if we could just get word to the remodeling market.

It's a good product and it performs very well in Washington's very damp climate when the installer pays attention to most of the traditional rules for installing flashings, grade clearance, concrete-to-siding contact and weather during installation. On the other hand, it is necessary to pay attention to some of the rules for the product lest the job go to hell and I have seen it installed very poorly time and again - usually by someone who's only defense is, "I don't need to read no friggin' instructions for how to install this siding; I've been installing siding for 30 years. Nobody can tell me anything I don't already know."

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Magic770]

I have been asked to accompany many buyers on home inspections before they purchase. I have built homes in Iowa for over 45 years and never installed Hardiplank. My question and concern is the butt joints that are open and without a siding joint installed. Many homeowners on your forum have ongoing problems with this exact issue. I read one today that said HP and Vulcam had Vulcam 106 as a sealer for the joints. I have used Vulcam for years and there is no way that will look good. Caulking is verty seldom the answer because very few cartpenters can installed it right. In Iowa caulking becomes a yearly maintenance headache. I would caution the buyer on puchasing this home without some expert opionion on installation of Hardiplank in Iowa.

Thank You in advance, Mike

[Jim Katen]

I have been asked to accompany many buyers on home inspections before they purchase. I have built homes in Iowa for over 45 years and never installed Hardiplank. My question and concern is the butt joints that are open and without a siding joint installed. Many homeowners on your forum have ongoing problems with this exact issue. I read one today that said HP and Vulcam had Vulcam 106 as a sealer for the joints. I have used Vulcam for years and there is no way that will look good. Caulking is verty seldom the answer because very few cartpenters can installed it right. In Iowa caulking becomes a yearly maintenance headache. I would caution the buyer on puchasing this home without some expert opionion on installation of Hardiplank in Iowa.

Thank You in advance, Mike

You do know that Hardi recommends using flashing behind those butt joints, right?

[mark parlee]

Mike

As long as it is two factory ends butt together and there is a joint flashing used there should be no problems, however there are plenty of problems elsewhere regarding a lot of installation errors.

look me up and give me a call

[Richie]

First of all, take a lot of pictures, some up close to the observed defects. Your Hardie Plank siding system needs to be totally replaced. It never should have been power nailed. When power nailing, an equal amount of force is applied to all nails. Hardie requires all nails to be driven into wood backing such as studs or plates (not just through sheathing). When such backing is missed by a nail, too much force is applied and the nail is over-driven, cracking and/or breaking the plank. I can guarantee that the problem exists in more areas than you have already observed. I am a materials, means and methods expert and consult on many construction claims issues.

[hausdok]

First of all, take a lot of pictures, some up close to the observed defects. Your Hardie Plank siding system needs to be totally replaced. It never should have been power nailed. When power nailing, an equal amount of force is applied to all nails. Hardie requires all nails to be driven into wood backing such as studs or plates (not just through sheathing). When such backing is missed by a nail, too much force is applied and the nail is over-driven, cracking and/or breaking the plank. I can guarantee that the problem exists in more areas than you have already observed. I am a materials, means and methods expert and consult on many construction claims issues.

Ritchie,

You might be starting fires where none existed. I agree that the original poster's siding install is crap and needs to be torn off and redone properly; however, how can you make the statement that Hardiplank should never have been power nailed when J.H. specifically recommends the use of power nailing for best consistency in application? Also, they do allow HP to be installed directly over OSB sheathing that's a minimum of 7/16-inch thick as long as the butt joints are nailed over studs.

I've been looking at power-nailed HP for the past 15 years and if power nailing were a serious issue I can guaranty you I would have heard about it by now. Can you point to a specific bulletin put out by J.H. stating to disregard their installation instructions and their best practices manual for whichever region one is in?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Bill Foley]

Every time HP has an issue they change the rules. That should be a red flag. I can't keep up with all the updates on installation changes, that's all I'd be doing. And why should I have to. Some of the of the other cement fiber company's are facing class action lawsuits, including HP, another red flag. Smartlap face nailed and maintained properly will last a lifetime. Quiklap also is agood product you just need to maintain it. Most problems with the latter two are maintnance issues and not installation.

[Jim Katen]

Every time HP has an issue they change the rules. That should be a red flag.

Why?

I can't keep up with all the updates on installation changes, that's all I'd be doing.

That's an absurd statement. There haven't been that many changes.

And why should I have to. Some of the of the other cement fiber company's are facing class action lawsuits, including HP, another red flag.

Not really. It just what lawyers do.

Smartlap face nailed and maintained properly will last a lifetime. Quiklap also is agood product you just need to maintain it. Most problems with the latter two are maintnance issues and not installation.

Seriously? Really? I think we must be talking about different products.

[rayzur9]

Ive got the same cracking from the nail outwards on just about every piece of Hardie Plank installed on my house, built in 06. To me, it just looks like typical "KB-Homes" shoddy work and those who are "doing the work us lazy americans dont want to do"...

Just because you can do it cheap and fast, doesnt mean you can do it right.

[hausdok]

If it's face nailed the installer probably doesn't know his job that well anyway. The best installes of HardiPlank that I see are completely blind nailed and everything is laying flat and straight without any additional nails at butt joints to keep the ends in line.

The installer probably nailed your stuff too close to the edge. The same thing happens with wood siding. Nail wood siding too close to the edge and it will split.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Marc]

Houston is within an ICC 110 mph wind zone. To reach a spec of 110 mph, it's necessary to nail the seams on the bottom edge of HP planks. That's from the HP manual.

Marc

[notahardiefan]

Hardie does everything in their power to avoid covering their product under warranty. I've dealt with Hardie reps on a hand full of occasions. I've called them out to job sites to examine their product while its still on the skid. It was a full skid that hadn't been touched or re-stacked. Better than 50% of the panels had paint damage. IE: paint was chipped or rubbed off by the panel next to it with both plastic strips still intact. The rep told me "It's common" and not to worry about it. He said: "I've dealt with homeowners in the past and told them it's an exterior product and it doesn't matter." My response was "It's a PRE-FINISHED exterior product." His response was It's your problem now because it's well within our quality standards. ARE YOU KIDDING ME????? That covers only one of the problems with the prefinished panel.

As for fiber cement in general, there is an underlying problem with EVERY brand on the market that no one has covered here. When you drive a nail through it

"IT DELAMINATES"

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Picture a chip in your windshield. It forms this nice little circle. If you don't fix it, eventually it will turn into a crack. Every time you drive a nail threw a piece of fiber cement siding, the back of the panel turns into something resembling that chip in the windshield. It doesn't mater if the nail is hand driven or done with a nail gun. Screws and fine gauge trim nails do the exact same thing. The only way to avoid it would be to predrill holes and then hand drive nails until the head is just touching the siding. If the head breaks the surface, it's on it's way to delaminateing. It may take a few years but it will do it eventually.

Can it be installed in a way that it will look good for many years? Yes.

Can it be installed in a way that it will EVER live up to its warranty? Not a snowballs chance!!!

Would I ever recommend fiber cement to any homeowner? No

Will I still install it? Yes, because Hardie spends so much money on advertising it can't be avoided.

James Hardie does two things well. Advertise and pass the buck.

[hausdok]

Hmmm,

So all of the Hardie product out here that was installed in the early 1990's, hasn't had a problem and where the warranty is going to expire soon was garbage?

Who'd a thunk it?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[gtblum]

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Hold on one minute.

Until you can take that same piece of siding, lay it against something like a sheet of OSB or anything else it would normally be fastened to in a real world application, and produce the same result, you've got nothing.

You could do the same thing to a sheet of plywood or a 2x4, with a nailer.

Will I still install it? Yes, because Hardie spends so much money on advertising it can't be avoided.

Really? So, are you saying that even though you believe this product is junk, you'll do anything for a buck?

[Jim Katen]

Hardie does everything in their power to avoid covering their product under warranty. I've dealt with Hardie reps on a hand full of occasions. I've called them out to job sites to examine their product while its still on the skid. It was a full skid that hadn't been touched or re-stacked. Better than 50% of the panels had paint damage. IE: paint was chipped or rubbed off by the panel next to it with both plastic strips still intact. The rep told me "It's common" and not to worry about it. He said: "I've dealt with homeowners in the past and told them it's an exterior product and it doesn't matter." My response was "It's a PRE-FINISHED exterior product." His response was It's your problem now because it's well within our quality standards. ARE YOU KIDDING ME????? That covers only one of the problems with the prefinished panel.

That's a sad story and, if it's true (forgive me, but I don't know you and you don't provide a name to lend credibility to your story) then it speaks poorly for James Hardie. However, I've had exactly the opposite experience. I've worked on several projects over the last few years that have used the pre-finished product and it's always been delivered in excellent condition. Right now, I'm working on a project of 10 apartment buildings and every unit has been delivered in pristine condition.

As for fiber cement in general, there is an underlying problem with EVERY brand on the market that no one has covered here. When you drive a nail through it

"IT DELAMINATES"

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Picture a chip in your windshield. It forms this nice little circle. If you don't fix it, eventually it will turn into a crack. Every time you drive a nail threw a piece of fiber cement siding, the back of the panel turns into something resembling that chip in the windshield. It doesn't mater if the nail is hand driven or done with a nail gun. Screws and fine gauge trim nails do the exact same thing. The only way to avoid it would be to predrill holes and then hand drive nails until the head is just touching the siding. If the head breaks the surface, it's on it's way to delaminateing. It may take a few years but it will do it eventually.

Those statements simply don't correspond with reality. I've been inspecting the stuff for 20 years. The overwhelming majority of the installations have no visible cracks.

Can it be installed in a way that it will look good for many years? Yes.

Can it be installed in a way that it will EVER live up to its warranty? Not a snowballs chance!!!

I disagree. And the majority of installations in my area are well on track to live up to the expectations of the warranty.

Would I ever recommend fiber cement to any homeowner? No

Will I still install it? Yes, because Hardie spends so much money on advertising it can't be avoided.

That says more about you than about Hardie.

James Hardie does two things well. Advertise and pass the buck.

Your comments are unfounded.

[janineanne]

Hi all,

I know this is a somewhat old topic but this looked like a good place to post my question as there are knowledgeable people in this thread.

I own a 10 year old home near Portland, Oregon. For those who are local, it was built by Arbor; for those who aren't, think sleazy mass market builder who gets sued a lot.

We are going to be painting the house ourselves this summer, and as such I've been taking a closer look at it than I usually do. We have Hardiplank and overall it's in pretty good condition, except for the large gaps where the caulk disappeared a long time ago. We had no idea you were supposed to re-caulk a two story house on a regular basis. A few of the boards have cupped out slightly on the ends, but nothing major.

However, there's one section of siding, on the west side of the house, where some of the pieces appear to have slipped. Representative pictures below. They aren't loose, in fact they don't move at all when I try to wiggle them. One of them has a visible nail hole with no nail in it (not torn out).

Can anyone please tell me:

- what the heck happened here? (a shoddy installation job is a given, it's Arbor)

- how do we fix this with a minimum of removing and replacing?

- are there any good homeowner references out there on how to work with this stuff? I presume we probably would not understand the official installation instructions nor have the correct tools to follow them.

- is there any point in contacting James Hardie after 10 years? We are not the original owners of the house and have no idea what the warranty is on this stuff.

Further, since we are going to have to touch every single joint on the house, is it worth our while to try to install flashing under the joints? Is this a homeowner-level task? Smearing on caulk sounds easier but I don't want to be up there again in a couple of years (did I mention it's a two story house?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer advice or pointers to other information. This task is completely new to us so we have a *lot* to learn.

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[mark parlee]

janineanne

This is an old thread but still the problems with fiber cement siding persist

You have a lot of work ahead of you. There have been a lot of recommendations over the years that have proved to less than satisfactory for the discerning home owner.

Caulking the joints has proven to be a poor detail in many if not all of the installations I review. This is due to the performance characteristics of the sealant. You have to take into account the dynamic movement of the joint that you are attempting to seal. This type of narrow joint will not work, it can?t. sure some will say ?hey I have seen it work? my statement that it will not, cannot work is a generally true statement; there are some places where this joint will not come loose but that is the exception for some reason. You will have a 90% or more sealant failure at these types of narrow joints.

Here is the skinny on the joint failure:

Sealant let?s take Vulkem for example, a very popular and widely used sealant.

http://www.cadeco.com/productfiles/Tremco-Vulkem116.pdf

Joint design: Joint width should be 4 times anticipated movement. But not less than ?? wide. Movement should not exceed 25% of the minimum joint width. For joints ?? to ?? wide. The width to depth ratio should be equal. Minimum joint size is to ?? x ??

Surface Preparation: For good adhesion, the joint must be sound, clean and dry. (This just about doesn?t happen) Then we go to the

So we have a joint between the panels that is aprox 1/8? wide and the panel easily moves 1/8? . Now we have 100% joint movement and adhesion is less that desirable. The joint fails. The joint collects water and the moisture saturates into the panel at the ends this moisture collection at the joint is due to the small size of the joint and surface tension of the water; it just hangs around until the panel absorbs it. In the colder season the ends of those panels are damp to wet and we go into freezing weather. When the moisture freezes it expands 9% and over time you get spalling at the joints.

So far I have only addressed the sealant issue at the joints. Fiber cement is very fragile. The nails that are often used are small headed and overdriven with an airnailer. Over time with wind it can cause the siding to mildly vibrate and the siding to fracture at some off those nails, this will allow the siding to drop slightly putting additional stress on the adjacent fasteners and more time and more wind and the siding looks like what you have.

I used to sing the praise of a well installed fiber cement siding job. Not so much anymore as I am called to investigate so many problems on this material.

I realize you came here for advice on what to do to save this stuff. Without knowing your abilities that is tough to know what will work for you. I do help people out from time to time via pictures through email and phone calls. Send me a direct email if you wish.

Here are some pictures of the stuff 200? from the T. It is very fragile material.

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[kurt]

Janineanne....

There is a tendency to complicate and obfuscate what are, at base, very simple carpentry tasks. That seems to be happening here. You may have a mess on your hands, but I doubt it. It looks manageable.

Do not be afraid of the installation instructions; they're actually relatively simple.

The skill set for installation is also relatively simple. I have taught complete amateurs with no experience whatsoever how to install cement siding perfectly. It's not hard to carry, set up, or install. I am mildly shocked that some make it out to be so complicated.

Caulking is not complicated either. There's some science and art, but I assure you, you can handle it with a little patience and persistence. Better yet, don't caulk; use flashing strips that Hardi recommends you use. The flashing strips work fine.

It's not particularly fragile; I don't know why Mark is saying it is. There are procedures for handling it, that if followed, work. It's not like the stuff has a molecular breakdown if you sneeze; you have to work at it to screw it up. (FTR, I see morons working really hard to screw it up, and they succeed. They are the same morons that don't ever read instructions, don't know how to nail, and dismiss any idea that's not already in their head.) You can handle it.

It's only a house. Folks fix them all the time. You can too. You do stuff every day that's ten times more complicated than installing siding. If you really want to fix your house, you will find your way. You can do it.

Take a few more pictures, post them, let's see what's going on.