Hardiplank Problems

[Upset Homeowner]

I just purchsed a new home 6 mo ago. I am running into some siding problems. I have hardiplank and some of it is falling off around the bottom of the house. I went to repair it and found out the problem is that the nails were shot into it too far. The buider tried to fix it by putting in one screw in each board and throwing dirt up to it to hold it in place. I also am noticing that some of the butt joints are not sealed. I live in the state of wisconsin. Do I have any legal recourse. Thanks

[hausdok]

Hi,

Well, first of all, this isn't the place to come for legal advice. Home inspectors are notoriously bad at offering legal advice.

I'd get the nearest James Hardie rep out to evaluate it and provide you something in writing about what wrong and what can be done to fix it. They might be willing to accept a report from a competent home inspector along with photos but you'll have to ask them about that. Once you've done that, I suppose that, depending on how much it will cost to correct it, you can either take the siding installer to small claims court or get legal representation and sue the installer to force him to correct it. Either way, I bet it's going to cost you something out of pocket to reach some kind of resolution.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[ghentjr]

Call the state office of consumer protection. If the nails were shot too deep in one section then the rest of the house is suspect. Usually Dept of Consumer Protection has some sway over contractors. If they can't help then call the State atty Generals office. Most new homes have a one year warranty so you may have recourse, but get the best info from your own state officials. P.S. Your local town building inspector should get a call as well.

[Mark P]

If it was new 6 months ago - is there a warrenty on the home?

[Eric B]

Go to James Hardie's website. You'll find everything you need to prove improper application. Photograph over-driven nails, uncaulked joints, soil up against the siding - all things Hardie says not to do. Armed with such information, you may be able to convince the builder to play nice. If not, then you may need to resort to a more ambitious approach. Don't back down or accept crappy repairs.

[Redvette]

Has anyone seen failure problems with Hardie siding or any of the other fiber cement products?

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Redvette

Has anyone seen failure problems with Hardie siding or any of the other fiber cement products?

Of the thousands of homes that I've seen clad in FC siding, I've only see one that was failing.

It was out at the Oregon Coast. On the south and west sides, the siding pieces had dozens of cracks. I strongly suspect that the material has been abused before it was installed.

Here's a whole passel of pictures. Has anyone else seen this? Does anyone else agree that it looks like abused material?

Image Insert:

25.68 KB

Image Insert:

28.18 KB

Image Insert:

35.62 KB

Image Insert:

34.96 KB

Image Insert:

37.83 KB

Image Insert:

25.66 KB

Image Insert:

31.62 KB

Image Insert:

42.16 KB

Image Insert:

43.97 KB

Image Insert:

38.97 KB

[randynavarro]

Interesting how most of those cracks are right at the dead center of the nail.

Abused? I'm not sure. If there were cracks during the install, it'd be pretty hard to center that nail gun dead center on the crack and drive it through.

Seems like the nails were part of the cracking? Expansion / contraction.

I'm certainly not going to start condemning fiber-cement . . . yet.

Good mystery, though. It'd be great to hear if there's any resolution on the cause. I'm guessing that's probably not going to happen, though.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by randynavarro

Interesting how most of those cracks are right at the dead center of the nail.

Abused? I'm not sure. If there were cracks during the install, it'd be pretty hard to center that nail gun dead center on the crack and drive it through.

Seems like the nails were part of the cracking? Expansion / contraction.

I'm certainly not going to start condemning fiber-cement . . . yet.

Good mystery, though. It'd be great to hear if there's any resolution on the cause. I'm guessing that's probably not going to happen, though.

My buyer walked. Whoever owns the house will eventually have to replace at least the damaged pieces of siding.

There were lots of nails that didn't cause cracking and there were lots of cracks that weren't located near nails. I found myself wondering about the lumber company truck driver's habit of dropping loads off the back of the truck. What if he dropped this load a little too hard? Or what if the installers, working in the rain, didn't bother to use two people to carry each piece and the FC flopped nearly in half every time they carried it from place to place?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Redvette]

I agree this appears to be installation problem or an issue with wall framing not a defect in the product. It looks like CertainTeed FC. If on the coast with south & western exposure, weather & wind could be a huge part of the problem. My sister had a B & B on the Newport coast with vinyl siding. Many times we heard the walls & windows flexing in 60 to 90 mph storms. I always wondered how much moisture was getting into the walls.

Last summer the Everett Herald had a story about cracking in a FC board called "Maxiplank" in a Stanwood area home. There is class-action suit in California with this product. The photos also had cracking at the nails. It appeared to me the installer had difficulty using a hammer.

Paul, Mukilteo, WA

[hausdok]

Hi Jim,

It looks to me like they put the stuff on wet and that the cracks developed when it dried and shrank. Perhaps they put it on wet and didn't get a perfectly straight line. When the stuff dried it would crack wherever one edge was crowning. I know, that sounds weird, but this stuff is cement, silica sand, and processed wood fiber after all. It's going to swell and shrink a certain amount when exposed to moisture and when it's allowed to get wet and then nailed into place things are going to happen when it dries out.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Chad Fabry]

Or what if the installers, working in the rain, didn't bother to use two people to carry each piece and the FC flopped nearly in half every time they carried it from place to place?

I can almost guarantee that's what happened. Over flexing the product causes the layers to separate from each other.

The only thing I've witnessed to be a true vulnerability is allowing the product to freeze if it is saturated. It makes it kind of crumbly.

[Richard Moore]

I'm not sure I can buy the "put-on-wet" theory. Even the un-primed stuff is allowed to sit on the house for 90 days and all they warn against is gaps at the butt ends if installed wet or saturated...

Image Insert:

29.12 KB

Image Insert:

36.79 KB

I can't tell if this was the pre-colored stuff, but as that seems to be fairly rare (probably way more expensive) I'm going to assume it was the regular, plain vanilla siding. All Jim's cracks look like they developed, or at least opened, sometime after painting.

I'd have to go with mechanically abused material, but I'm just not sure when that abuse would have taken place. Part of the problem is I just don't want to believe anyone would install pre-damaged siding (but I'm probably being naive).

Jim...were there any drywall cracks inside suggesting the house getting racked at some point...like someone might have driven a truck into a corner?

[Eric B]

Originally posted by Redvette

Has anyone seen failure problems with Hardie siding or any of the other fiber cement products?

I've got a failure issue going on now with HardiePlank boards on 3 yr old house. Hardie, Toll Bros, installer and painter all fighting it out and pointing fingers. I looked at some of the other homes in the neighborhood and found similar conditions. I tried getting info from Hardie on the condition and they were useless.

Image Insert:

137.03 KB

[SteveS]

I originally looked at this forum just to see if Hardie was holding up. After doing many installs of Hardie lap siding I have have not seen any problems with the siding itself. Truly Impressive! It is possible to get the wind under it, but it would have to very strong. In these areas where high wind is common I would not use any lap siding unless you don't mind face nails. Now I looked very carefully at the pics posted by Jim Katen, and noticed that many of the cracks were vertically aligned. A single bowed out wall stud could be the culprit here. Combined with trying to hard to make a flat siding job (bent to aggressively at this point). I found this on my own house in one spot. If you look down the side with your face near the siding, I bet you can see it bowed out. Also the installers used way to many face nails. This is another indication of problems under the new siding. Thirdly my guess is there was likely some of the new planks were damaged prior to installation. Those pictures combined with a siding specialists report should be an easy small claims case. My guess is the installer or company he works for knows he left in shoddy condition and won't be very helpful, but it's always proper to start there.

On the cracked paint above, it looks like just plain old cheap paint. Three years with low solids in the paint, looks about right. Sorry to say. Possibly combined with having been painted over wet hardie or during high humidity. The later is an on going issue with painting contractors trying to make a living when they KNOW they need to wait to paint. I live in the Northwest and I love to paint (good $ too) but I only paint outside between June and August with at least a solid week of warm weather. Having to go back and fix problems can kill a small business. Best wishes to both of you!

[tedmen]

I have installed Hardi-plank since it came out. I never saw anything like the pics in the original post. I don't have the info at hand but I would certainly check out hardi's site for proper nailing. Face nailing??? with what size nail???? As far a a slight bow in the wall stud, I am not sure unless major that that is the problem. I would suggest more on the line that a butcher had some slow days at the butcher shop and handled and applied the siding in his spare time. As far as the paint pics further down. I may suggest that it looks like it was cheap paint put on way to thick for a one coat job and maybe it got just a little cold that evening.

Just some thoiughts and opinions.

Ted

[mickreed]

I am having trouble with butt joints cracking. Almost all of them.

Joints sealed with Vulkem 106 and installed exactly per instructions of both Hardie and Vulkem at the time. I noticed Hardie has changed their butt joint installation instructions since this house was built 5 years ago. I just want Hardie to tell me why the joints failed and what can I do to fix it. I myself know of 4 other people in my area with exact same problem. Here are some pics.

Image Insert:

556.73 KB

Image Insert:

414.82 KB

[hausdok]

Hi,

I would hardly call that an issue. A gap that wide is too narrow to put any backer rod in. About all you can do is smear a little bit of caulk on the butt joint. If you do it when the siding has expanded lengthwise, as soon as it shrinks, the joint will crack because there's nothing such as a backer rod enabling the caulk bead to remain intact as it moves. The siding, and the framing, expands and contracts with changes in temperature and humidity. When that happens, caulked joints will eventually crack. They all do, and that's why a homeowner has to inspect and touch up the caulking every single year.

Don't think that just because the caulk used is supposed to be a "25-year" caulk that it means the stuff will hold without cracking for 25 years. If you think that, get it out of your head right now, 'cuz that's a fable. Sure, the caulk might last for 25 years without completely breaking down and disappearing but it's only the caulk they're referring to; not the house it's applied to.

You should expect to have to do that. It's a simple fact of homeownership fact of life,...get used to it.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[sgutha]

Originally posted by randynavarro

Interesting how most of those cracks are right at the dead center of the nail.

Abused? I'm not sure. If there were cracks during the install, it'd be pretty hard to center that nail gun dead center on the crack and drive it through.

Seems like the nails were part of the cracking? Expansion / contraction.

I'm certainly not going to start condemning fiber-cement . . . yet.

Good mystery, though. It'd be great to hear if there's any resolution on the cause. I'm guessing that's probably not going to happen, though.

Hi,

We too have similar problem. Attached are some of the pictures of cracked hardy planks around the nails.

We reported this problem as part of our 11 month repairs list to our builder but they have not done anything yet. Our house is now 1 and ½ years old. I am trying to contact siding company JamesHardie to check whether this is covered by their warranty.

Thanks,

Srini

Click to View

922.07 KB

Click to View

746.97 KB

Click to View

746.96 KB

[randynavarro]

That's not Hardiplank. Hardiplank is pretty much the only fiber cement siding used here in the Seattle area so I can almost recognize it from the street.

That embossed grain pattern is someone else's.

[Brandon Whitmore]

Could it be HP rustic cedar?

http://www.jameshardiecommercial.com/hardieplank.shtml

[Jeremy]

Jim,

It looks like a nail with too large of shank would be a possibility and like others have said, put on soak and wet.

[Jeremy]

Originally posted by sgutha

Originally posted by randynavarro

Interesting how most of those cracks are right at the dead center of the nail.

Abused? I'm not sure. If there were cracks during the install, it'd be pretty hard to center that nail gun dead center on the crack and drive it through.

Seems like the nails were part of the cracking? Expansion / contraction.

I'm certainly not going to start condemning fiber-cement . . . yet.

Good mystery, though. It'd be great to hear if there's any resolution on the cause. I'm guessing that's probably not going to happen, though.

Hi,

We too have similar problem. Attached are some of the pictures of cracked hardy planks around the nails.

We reported this problem as part of our 11 month repairs list to our builder but they have not done anything yet. Our house is now 1 and ½ years old. I am trying to contact siding company JamesHardie to check whether this is covered by their warranty.

Thanks,

Srini

Click to View

922.07 KB

Click to View

746.97 KB

Click to View

746.96 KB

Your builder should be taking care of this for you.

[randynavarro]

Originally posted by Brandon Whitmore

Could it be HP rustic cedar?

http://www.jameshardiecommercial.com/hardieplank.shtml

Cool. I haven't checked the Hardie site in a while for the different options.

Didn't know they made that many.

Here, everything is the Cedarmill or Smooth stuff.

[robert1966]

Sounds like you have several problems. One screw is not adequate to secure the planks. Also the siding should be at least 4 inches off the grade, throwing dirty against it is really asking for it.

Check with your local building regulations and consult your states construction commission for your rights and entitlements. At worse, have them repair the siding in accordance with the required manufacture's specs and the local building codes.

Robert Welch

www.atexinspects.com

Originally posted by Upset Homeowner

I just purchsed a new home 6 mo ago. I am running into some siding problems. I have hardiplank and some of it is falling off around the bottom of the house. I went to repair it and found out the problem is that the nails were shot into it too far. The buider tried to fix it by putting in one screw in each board and throwing dirt up to it to hold it in place. I also am noticing that some of the butt joints are not sealed. I live in the state of wisconsin. Do I have any legal recourse. Thanks