New 2008 NEC GFCI requirememts

[SWagar]

As you know the new Electrical codes are here! The new NEC code removes all previous exceptions to Garage GFCI outlets. In other words, all outlets in garages need GFCI protection. Even garage door openers located on the ceiling and dedicated single appliance outlets. Oregon, has some exceptions to this part of the code (if I interpret them correctly).

My question is, what are inspectors saying in their reports about these outlets, especially door opener receptacles on the ceiling often 9 feet or more above the floor? I have heard that some inspectors are recommending that these circuits be updated to have GFCI protection, in older homes. From a practicality standpoint isn't this a little over the top? I would, always recommend upgrading all other required outlets in bathrooms, kitchens, outdoors, sinks etc. where people actually use them. But to recommend that door opener outlet be modified, I don’t know.

I can't imagine what happens when the GFCI trips halfway through the lifting/closing cycle and shuts off the door. Now your client can't get in or out of his garage without resetting the GFCI outlet up on the ceiling. It may not always be possible in some homes to put the controlling GFCI outlet in a more accessible location. The NEC seems to think that nuisance trips are low these days, but my experience tells me that is not always the case. I have a friend whose new condo’s washing machine is in a bathroom closet. It requires GFCI by code. This GFCI trips constantly and has been replaced no less that 3 times by the builder. So nuisance trips do happen.

What do you think?

[jon_ran]

If the GFCI trips halfway through the operation of the overhead door, it will not shut the door. To do so would require electricity, which is not being supplied due to the GFCI being tripped. The occupant would simply have to reset the GFCI and continue as normal. If it can not be reset, pull the cord with the little t handle and open as if it did not have an opener.

BTW, I always disconnect the door from the opener via the release and check for door operation without the assistance of the opener. Should the opener fail and the springs be weak, broken or out of adjustment it could be a safety concern.

[SWagar]

What i meant to say was that the door's operation would be stopped (shut down). Bad wording on my part.

[qhinspect]

I am still going to recommended it.

The GFCI can be located at the breaker if the ceiling is too high in the garage. As everyone already knows, a garage door opener doesn't prevent somebody from using the garage/garage door.

I feel this will cover myself because a Lawyer is likely to ask why it wasn't recommended if he wanted to go in that direction.

[jon_ran]

I am treating this as I treat any older home. I have always recommended that any outlet at the homes exterior, in the garage, in the bathroom and at the kitchen counter areas be GFCI protected. Now I still do the above, only I now recommend that all outlets in the garage and kitchen be GFCI protected as a measure of safety. This would not be a repair item on homes prior to your locality adopting the new NEC, but it is an improvement that improves safety.

In reality, the dedicated outlet for the overhead door opener should not be a GFCI, but should be "downstream" of the GFCI protecting the other garage outlets. You should not have to drag out a ladder to reset the GFCI.

There may be moisture/humidity issues causing your friends GFCI to trip. It could actually be an issue with his washer or dryer and not the GFCI itself. Newer appliances should not cause the GFCI to trip as older appliances did. Remember, the GFCI is a piece of mechanical equipment. They will only trip for so many times before they can not be reset and/or will not trip again and need to be replaced.

[SWagar]

An aside on the washing machine, the electrician told me that the entire complex is having problems, not just my friend. The County will noy budge on the code to have GFCI in all bathrom outlets even for washing machines located in bath closet. So it sounds like it is motor surge causing the problem aka nuisance trip.

[MMustola]

Many times I see trouble lights, retractable extension cord reels, or Christmas lights plugged into these ceiling outlets. I think it wold be wise to recommend updating the outlets. The cost do do so is very cheap.

[Brian G]

I think it's a badly misguided change. If they wanted to improve the safety of outlets in garages they should have required a dedicated single outlet for each door opener, without the GFCI protection. Garage door openers do not need GFCI protection.

Then do the same for dedicated appliance outlets, and require one of those stickers saying "Not GFCI protected". Here in one of the poorest part of America, where freezers in garages and carports are still fairly common, I will not recommend putting GFCI protection on an outlet a freezer will be plugged into. That's nuts, if you have anything in the freezer.

I can't help wondering if there was any hard evidence offered that the rules as they were, for lo those many years they stood, had led to any known deaths or serious injuries. I'll bet if there were any at all, they were very few and far between. I'm dumbfounded how they can go over the wall on stuff like this, yet continue to allow shoddy practices like back-wiring devices.

Brian G.

When Conforming Makes No Sense, I'm a Non-Conformist [:-mohawk]

[inspectorchris]

It doesn't make sense to ever have an appliance that is motorized on a GFCI. The whole point is that it monitors difference in current from hot to neutral. If you have something with a motor that creates a surge of power or sudden load it will trip the outlet un necessarily. That is the reason that Fridge's are not supposed too be on them. A dedicated circuit makes sense to me but other than that it is always at risk of tripping un necessarily. IMHO

I had a home owner call me the other day about there fridge being off after I left and accusing me of breaking it cuz the breaker wasn't tripped but it know longer operated so I MUST have done something that damaged the fridge because it was on a GFCI that they couldn't get to or see to know that was the problem.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by SWagar

. . . I would, always recommend upgrading all other required outlets in bathrooms, kitchens, outdoors, sinks etc. where people actually use them. But to recommend that door opener outlet be modified, I don’t know.

Don't think of it as the "door opener outlet." It's a receptacle on the ceiling of a garage. Nothing special about it. You & I work in the same area. Don't you also see extension cords run from garage ceiling receptacles to every imaginable device both inside and outside the house?

I can't imagine what happens when the GFCI trips halfway through the lifting/closing cycle and shuts off the door. Now your client can't get in or out of his garage without resetting the GFCI outlet up on the ceiling.

Of course he can. He might have to reach up to the ceiling but on the other hand, he might be able to reset the GFCI that feeds the ceiling receptacle but that is located on the wall or in the service panel. Just because you have to provide GFCI protection to ceiling receptacles doesn't mean that electricians suddenly have to be stupid and put the actual devices there. The homeowner can also always pull the emergency release cord.

It may not always be possible in some homes to put the controlling GFCI outlet in a more accessible location.

It's always possible to put the GFCI device in the service panel. Those are accessible.

The NEC seems to think that nuisance trips are low these days, but my experience tells me that is not always the case. I have a friend whose new condo’s washing machine is in a bathroom closet. It requires GFCI by code. This GFCI trips constantly and has been replaced no less that 3 times by the builder. So nuisance trips do happen.

Um, those aren't nuisance trips. The machine has a ground fault.

What do you think?

I think it's about time that the NEC caught up with the 21st century. The exceptions for GFCI protection were outdated.

I'm more concerned about the expansion of AFCI requirements. AFCIs aren't nearly as mature a technology as GFCIs are and they're much more expensive.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by inspectorchris

It doesn't make sense to ever have an appliance that is motorized on a GFCI.

Hmm, let's see, pool pumps, spa pumps, motors on power tools at construction sites all over the U.S. . . . I guess none of those makes sense?

The whole point is that it monitors difference in current from hot to neutral. If you have something with a motor that creates a surge of power or sudden load it will trip the outlet un necessarily. That is the reason that Fridge's are not supposed too be on them. A dedicated circuit makes sense to me but other than that it is always at risk of tripping un necessarily. IMHO

None of that is true. Motor surges don't cause imbalances in the circuit and there's no rule that fridges aren't supposed to be on GFCIs. I'm afraid that you're guilty of spreading knee-deep folklore. If a fridge, freezer or other refrigeration device trips a GFCI, it probably means that the compressor windings are losing their insulation and that current is leaking to ground. This is a very common problem in older refrigeration equipment. The GFCI is performing exactly the task that it was intended to perform when it shuts down power to these faulty appliances.

One more time for good measure: Motors don't cause GFCIs to trip unless there's something wrong with the motor.

I had a home owner call me the other day about there fridge being off after I left and accusing me of breaking it cuz the breaker wasn't tripped but it know longer operated so I MUST have done something that damaged the fridge because it was on a GFCI that they couldn't get to or see to know that was the problem.

We've all been there. That doesn't mean that GFCIs are bad things.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[SWagar]

Well as you know, Oregon has an exception to the NEC requirement for GFCI for ceiling garage door openers. We also have an exception for single dedicated outlets for not readily movable equipment (in garages) e.g. Fridges and Vacs in both the 2005and 2008 Oregon Specialty Electric Code. What I have a problem with is indicating to our clients that this is an item that would require repair by the seller. When, it was never part of our code nor will it be for the next three years. I would hope that inspectors would refer to this as a safety upgrade. There has never been a code that requires homes be updated when the codes are revised.

You and I know how those repairs we suggest in our reports get done, the cheapest and quickest way possible and not always by a licensed professional. So what would a seller have done, stick in a GFCI outlet at the door opener receptacle of course!

The intent of the ceiling outlet is to service the garage door opener, a motorized unit. Which we all know may cause nuisance trips. Yes I have seen an occasional cord plugged into these outlets, but I have seen a lot of cords plugged into a lot of outlets run to all sorts of things inside and out. Doesn’t mean I suggest GFCI protection at those outlets.

Furthermore, when the seller leaves so might the errant extension cord. Further, I would educate the client on the proper use of that outlet.

Picture this, your 80 year old single female comes home late from work, opens her garage door and the GFCI trips because of the motor surge, I’m not so sure she will a) know what to do or have the ability to fix it and B) may not be all that safe that night and C) be ticked off. I believe that some exceptions have merit.

That’s two posts now that say just pull the release cord on the door. Have you ever pulled the release cord on a half open door that the springs are not adequate, LOOK OUT!, dead man (no longer) walking. And again, your standard home owner may not know what that red cord hanging from the door is for, other than a parking guide.

Oregon also has exceptions to the 2008 NEC AFCI protection requirement as well. We still only need AFCI in bedrooms. Other states may as well check with your local AHJ.

AS far as the nuisance trips go at my friend’s condo, I did note in a following post that the entire complex is having the same problem, that being the GFCI trips when the washing machine runs. The trip happens often but not always. I can’t believe that many new washing machines in the complex (not the same as they were not supplied by the builder) all have ground fault issues. Points back to motors and GFCIs don’t mix. I have read that motor surge does not cause tripping, but anecdotal evidence seems to say the opposite.

One Man's opinion..

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by SWagar

Well as you know, Oregon has an exception to the NEC requirement for GFCI for ceiling garage door openers. We also have an exception for single dedicated outlets for not readily movable equipment (in garages) e.g. Fridges and Vacs in both the 2005and 2008 Oregon Specialty Electric Code. What I have a problem with is indicating to our clients that this is an item that would require repair by the seller. When, it was never part of our code nor will it be for the next three years. I would hope that inspectors would refer to this as a safety upgrade. There has never been a code that requires homes be updated when the codes are revised.

Recommend whatever you want. No one's argueing about how you word your reports. The whole "to code or not to code" thing has been beaten to death and really doesn't interest me.

You and I know how those repairs we suggest in our reports get done, the cheapest and quickest way possible and not always by a licensed professional. So what would a seller have done, stick in a GFCI outlet at the door opener receptacle of course!

Well, I guess I might as well just stop making recommendations. After all, someone's just going to screw it up.

The intent of the ceiling outlet is to service the garage door opener, a motorized unit. Which we all know may cause nuisance trips.

No. We do not all know that. Please reveiw your basic physics. There's nothing about a properly wired motor in good condition that will cause a GFCI to trip. Some "refrigeration" motors might *if* the insulation on their windings is worn. That's because refrigeration compressor motor windings are bathed in liquid refrigerant. In those cases, the GFCI is supposed to trip. That's its purpose.

I don't often do this, but as moderator of this forum, I'm asking you to either back up that statement with a solid reference or stop making that claim.

Yes I have seen an occasional cord plugged into these outlets, but I have seen a lot of cords plugged into a lot of outlets run to all sorts of things inside and out. Doesn’t mean I suggest GFCI protection at those outlets.

Furthermore, when the seller leaves so might the errant extension cord. Further, I would educate the client on the proper use of that outlet.

Good points.

Picture this, your 80 year old single female comes home late from work, opens her garage door and the GFCI trips because of the motor surge, I’m not so sure she will a) know what to do or have the ability to fix it and B) may not be all that safe that night and C) be ticked off. I believe that some exceptions have merit.

The motor surge doesn't cause a GFCI to trip. If the GFCI trips, it's because there's a ground fault. The trip might save her life if the door or its track has become energized.

That’s two posts now that say just pull the release cord on the door. Have you ever pulled the release cord on a half open door that the springs are not adequate, LOOK OUT!, dead man (no longer) walking.

How's a falling door going to kill someone if he's standing under the armature having just pulled the release? Besides, you would have checked the balance of the door during the inspection, right? Are you arguing that, because some door springs are mis-adjusted, then it's dangerous to use the release cord, and therefore the garage ceiling receptacle shouldn't be protected by a GFCI? Cause that's what it sounds like. Pretty weird logic.

And again, your standard home owner may not know what that red cord hanging from the door is for, other than a parking guide.

More weird logic. People don't understand release cords, therefore ceiling receptacles shouldn't be GFCI protected. ??

Oregon also has exceptions to the 2008 NEC AFCI protection requirement as well. We still only need AFCI in bedrooms. Other states may as well check with your local AHJ.

The AFCI thing is not popular. Several states are striking that requirement. For the most part, they see it for what it is, a grab by the manufacturers to sell some expensive product.

AS far as the nuisance trips go at my friend’s condo, I did note in a following post that the entire complex is having the same problem, that being the GFCI trips when the washing machine runs. The trip happens often but not always. I can’t believe that many new washing machines in the complex (not the same as they were not supplied by the builder) all have ground fault issues. Points back to motors and GFCIs don’t mix. I have read that motor surge does not cause tripping, but anecdotal evidence seems to say the opposite.

I'm actually very interested in that condo complex. Give me a call sometime with the address. I suspect that you're getting some very unreliable third-hand information. Condos are like that. Two people have a GFCI trip and all of a sudden the whole condo population explodes with indignation. Anecdotal evidence is not a good thing to hang your hat on, especially if it comes from a condo mob.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Scottpat]

I think a simple answer and one that I have been saying for years is to tell your client that all bathroom, kitchen ,garage and exterior outlets need GFCI protection. Not much more needs to be said. Now if you want to go ahead and specify the garage door opener outlets, that is up to you.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Scottpat

I think a simple answer and one that I have been saying for years is to tell your client that all bathroom, kitchen ,garage and exterior outlets need GFCI protection. Not much more needs to be said.

Well, except that it's inaccurate. For instance all kitchen outlets don't need GFCI protection. Only *receptacles* that serve kitchen countertops. You also left out receptacles in unfinished basements, in crawlspaces, at wet bars, and in laundry rooms that have sinks.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Brandon Whitmore]

Don't think of it as the "door opener outlet." It's a receptacle on the ceiling of a garage. Nothing special about it. You & I work in the same area. Don't you also see extension cords run from garage ceiling receptacles to every imaginable device both inside and outside the house?

Why the heck is there not a simple requirement for more than one receptacle in the garage? Common sense tells me that a homeowner will use the most accessible receptacle for their extension cord. I say at least one receptacle per wall would be a good requirement. It may prevent the average weekend warrior homeowner from doing their own "custom" electrical installations when turning their garage into a workshop, etc.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Brandon Whitmore

Don't think of it as the "door opener outlet." It's a receptacle on the ceiling of a garage. Nothing special about it. You & I work in the same area. Don't you also see extension cords run from garage ceiling receptacles to every imaginable device both inside and outside the house?

Why the heck is there not a simple requirement for more than one receptacle in the garage? Common sense tells me that a homeowner will use the most accessible receptacle for their extension cord. I say at least one receptacle per wall would be a good requirement. It may prevent the average weekend warrior homeowner from doing their own "custom" electrical installations when turning their garage into a workshop, etc.

Write a proposal for a code change of 210.52(G). Anyone can do it. I believe the deadline is November 7, 2008. You might want to review past proposals at the NFPA website to see if this one has been proposed before and, if so, why it was rejected.

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Co ... alForm.doc

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Scottpat]

Originally posted by Jim Katen

Originally posted by Scottpat

I think a simple answer and one that I have been saying for years is to tell your client that all bathroom, kitchen ,garage and exterior outlets need GFCI protection. Not much more needs to be said.

Well, except that it's inaccurate. For instance all kitchen outlets don't need GFCI protection. Only *receptacles* that serve kitchen countertops. You also left out receptacles in unfinished basements, in crawlspaces, at wet bars, and in laundry rooms that have sinks.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Ya, I thought about all of that after I posted. I figured someone would chime in and add to my list.

It's all relative to what you are inspecting.

[Kyle Kubs]

I'm with Jim all the way on this. I spent a large part of my childhood rewinding and rebuilding electric motors with my Father who had a small part time business in the basement. The rest of the time he worked for General Electric building and installing generators in Nuclear, Hydroelectric and other generating plants around the world. Motor surges will not cause nuisance trips on GFCI protected circuits. The surge is a very momentary draw of excess current which is transfered right back through the neutral, so even though there is a surge, it is balanced on both sides of the circuit. This is easy enough to confirm with a pair of Amp meters at the panel. For a nuisance trip to occur there has to be an imbalance. Like when a hair dryer turns current into heat, more coming in on the hot line then going back on the Neutral, surges don't do this. Even a hair dryer takes several seconds or more, sometimes minutes, to cause a GFCI to trip, most surges last 1-3 seconds at most. Again put an ampmeter on the line and see for yourself.

You seam to be hung up (pun intended) on the garage door thing...

First as all have said, several times, you should be checking the function of the springs and the ability for them to support the door without the opener. For one this makes it safe to operate the door the good old fashioned way, by hand. I always show my clients how to do this as I demonstrate the doors proper or improper balance.

Second if the springs are balanced properly the opener is not working hard at all, its not "lifting" the door, it's just moving a perfectly balanced door in it's tracks and hence with very little effort on it's part, there should not even be any significant surge, which again, is not going to cause a nuisance trip in the first place.

The washing machine thing is very likely with the windings as Jim said or possibly with some very poor wiring practices on the builder part, such as back wiring causing an imbalance (maybe) or an incorrect multi-wire circuit feeding the washer.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Kyle Kubs

I'm with Jim all the way on this. I spent a large part of my childhood rewinding and rebuilding electric motors with my Father who had a small part time business in the basement. The rest of the time he worked for General Electric building and installing generators in Nuclear, Hydroelectric and other generating plants around the world. Motor surges will not cause nuisance trips on GFCI protected circuits. The surge is a very momentary draw of excess current which is transfered right back through the neutral, so even though there is a surge, it is balanced on both sides of the circuit. This is easy enough to confirm with a pair of Amp meters at the panel. For a nuisance trip to occur there has to be an imbalance. Like when a hair dryer turns current into heat, more coming in on the hot line then going back on the Neutral, surges don't do this. Even a hair dryer takes several seconds or more, sometimes minutes, to cause a GFCI to trip, most surges last 1-3 seconds at most.

A properly wired hair dryer won't trip a GFCI. The hairdryer turns electricity into heat, but it doesn't just take electricity from one side of the circuit. You ought to be able to run a hair dryer all day on a GFCI circuit without it tripping.

Again put an ampmeter on the line and see for yourself.

An ammeter will show you how much current an appliance is drawing, but most ammeters aren't sensitive enough to show the 5 milliamp difference that will trip a GFCI.

. . . The washing machine thing is very likely with the windings as Jim said or possibly with some very poor wiring practices on the builder part, such as back wiring causing an imbalance (maybe) or an incorrect multi-wire circuit feeding the washer.

Back-stabbed receptacles should have no effect on GFCI tripping.

A MW circuit would trip the GFCI nearly every time the circuit was used.

Bad windings would certainly cause a GFCI to trip, but it's unlikely that there are several washers with bad windings in the condo complex.

My bet is that the perception of GFCI faults is caused by mass hysteria among the occupants, but I'm a cynic.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Tom Raymond]

A MW circuit would trip the GFCI nearly every time the circuit was used.

Here in lies the problem. How much you wanna bet the GFCI for the washer and drier IS the multi wire circuit? Prior to the GFCI requirement it was common practice to split the hot side of a duplex to create two dedicated cicuits. If this building was roughed in with a MWC and then a GFCI installed on the finish then one hot lead is protected and the other is connected to the load terminal and is not protected. If this would work without causing the breakers to trip, then it would very likely cause the GFCI to malfunction.

Tom

[Richard Moore]

Back to GFCIs for garage door openers...

If you have a detached, vault style garage (no other entrance) just make sure that there is a keyed emergency release for the door opener.

I did a pre-list inspection last week on an 1910 home with, mostly, newer wiring. Old, detached garage with a newer door and opener. The owner is following me around, and he opens the door using a remote. The garage was so full of "stuff" that you couldn't get more than a foot or so into it. I do a cursory inspection from the doorway and I explain to him that I can't even see any wall receptacles, never mind get to them, but they would need to be GFCI protected. I also strongly recommend a keyed release so that someone could access the garage in case of a power outage.

He then closes the door while I start looking around the outside to check how the power is fed to the garage. I find the UG conduit feed behind some plants (looks OK) and also an exterior non-GFCI receptacle. And that's when I had my brain fart!!!

I stick the old Suretest in the receptacle and then, despite having just talked about the need for an emergency release, I go ahead and test the exterior receptacle for GFCI. I think something in my head was saying don't do it, but I couldn't stop myself. Sure enough, I hear a click from inside the garage, and immediately start praying the opener was NOT protected. Sheepishly, I ask the owner to try the opener again and, of course, is doesn't respond.

@%%#!!! The one small fixed window doesn't appear to offer any access and I'm feeling really stupid and embarrassed. Fortunately, the owner knew the window was only held in place by a couple of bent over nails inside and we were eventually able to jimmy it open. I could then see the GFCI along the interior wall but it was well out of reach. Boosted the younger, skinnier owner through the window and he then "body surfed" over his junk to the receptacle and reset it.

Nice guy, and we had a laugh over it, but yet another of those "Doh!" moments for me. I think they're coming more rapidly!

[fyrmnk]

Whenever I recommend outlets be upgraded to GFCI protected I also put the following boilerplate:

"Although the age of the structure may predate the requirement, it is strongly recommended that all outlets in wet locations, outlets within 6' feet of water sources, and all other outlets as required by current National Electric Code be properly GFCI protected."

(Slightly different from that, going from memory on the exact wording, but you get the idea).

[hausdok]

Not bad, Kevin,

Now, could you rewrite that in active voice, please?

OT - OF!!!

M.

[fyrmnk]

Originally posted by hausdok

Now, could you rewrite that in active voice, please?

Huh?