Going IR

[hausdok]

Maybe, if it's discovered by other means but it will still be on shaky ground. A good analogy is the fellow who calls the police to report that he smells dope coming from a neigbor's apartment. When the police arrive, it doesnt matter if the neighbor who reported it is a stone cold pothead, unless the police smell it they can't do a thing about it. Kind of dumb but that's the way it is. In court, those cops will be challenged to prove that they know what burning dope smells like and they'll have to testify that they've had to undergo official training where they were taught to recognize the smell of burning dope. Without that "certification" the case will typically get tossed. It's stupid, but that's the way it is.

That't not the point though, the point is that the IR profession established the "standards" for thermographers and nobody in this profession has a right to demand they change their standards anymore than they have a right to demand that the home inspection profession change its way of doing things to accommodate them.

There seems to be this tendency among home inspectors to take shortcuts and to expect people to waive rules for them because they simply don't care to do what has to be done to get adequate traiing and meet standards that have been set. I'm seeing it more and more and it's kind of disturbing.

Frankly, I don't understand it.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[hausdok]

Walter,

Guess you typed your response while I was typing mine.

I agree with what you say, it is usually the person that's best prepared who wins at trial but you can't discount the value of proper and thorough training. I'm not saying there aren't a lot of crappy trainers out there, because there are, but individuals have a responsibility, once they get training, to put that training to use and become as expert as they can and that means being prepared when they go to trial. Frankly, there's no excuse for going to a trial unprepared, regardless of which side of a case you're on.

OT - OF!!!

Mike

[davidlord]

It amazes me that the majority of the people in this profession are so fixated on being sued and what the defense lawyer is going to do.

I will guarantee you that I will never be sued because of something I've done with an IR camera.

I would find another way to make a living if all I thought about was if every move I made somebody is going to sue me.

[Chris Bernhardt]

The level I, II, III stuff is based on NDT standard so in so. You can apply the standard to any non-invasive tool.

I have nothing against certing us to death if you want, but you shouldn't have to attend some expensive course to do so. The stuff is not rocket science. Some sort of exam would be fine.

On the face of it certing is not a bad idea, its the industry behind it that is unecessary and designed to enrich the cert promugators.

You only have to look so far as the recent ASTM attempt to create a messed up HI standard to understand what I am talking about.

Chris, Oregon

[hausdok]

Originally posted by davidlord

It amazes me that the majority of the people in this profession are so fixated on being sued and what the defense lawyer is going to do.

I will guarantee you that I will never be sued because of something I've done with an IR camera.

I would find another way to make a living if all I thought about was if every move I made somebody is going to sue me.

Hi David,

I don't know that it's a "fixation" I tought that the thread had turned to the discussion of whether or not to get the formal IR training and certification or to try to figure it all out on your own. I merely pointed out that I think there are established training and certification standards for a reason, which I think is grounded in legalities, and that we home inspectors would be wise to accept the rules that are laid out, and the reasons they are laid out, instead of trying to take shortcuts.

Although in today's letigious society the possibility of lawsuits are ever present, like you, I don't dwell on it. My philosophy is to do every inspection like I'm inspecting the house for my mother; that way, I know I'll get it right every time the first time.

So, you don't use a pre-inspection contract at all? I gotta say, that does sound a little bit loopy. Lawsuits aside, a good PIA sets the tone for your inspection and makes sure there are no misunderstandings about what you will inspect and what you won't inspect and it lays out for the client the steps to take in order to successfully resolve complaints later on. Like you, 12+ years and not a single sit-down at an arbitration table or a trip to court to defend my company.

This is going kind of far afield of IR though; if folks think that discussion of the ever-present high liability aspect of the profession is worthy of discussion, I'll split the topic off and we can continue going down that road in another thread.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Chris Bernhardt]

I merely pointed out that I think there are established training and certification standards for a reason, which I think is grounded in legalities, and that we home inspectors would be wise to accept the rules that are laid out, and the reasons they are laid out, instead of trying to take shortcuts.

Mike, it is fundamentally unwise to accept established rules without first understanding their limitations. The appearance of "shortcuts" is a result of re-application of the principles to the job at hand.

My engineering mentor use to tell me "Rules are for the feeble minded". The guy was a genius.

Chris, Oregon

[Chris Bernhardt]

The crux of the problem in employing IR cams in HI work is verifying the anomalies that you are seeing.

This is where I wish we could get this subject headed to the actual experiences that HI's are having with their IR cams.

A while back I proposed a separate IR forum to do this, but there was no interest.

Chris, Oregon

[SonOfSwamp]

Originally posted by hausdok

Walter,

Guess you typed your response while I was typing mine.

I agree with what you say, it is usually the person that's best prepared who wins at trial but you can't discount the value of proper and thorough training. I'm not saying there aren't a lot of crappy trainers out there, because there are, but individuals have a responsibility, once they get training, to put that training to use and become as expert as they can and that means being prepared when they go to trial. Frankly, there's no excuse for going to a trial unprepared, regardless of which side of a case you're on.

OT - OF!!!

Mike

I'm just saying that my experience tells me that any reasonably intelligent and decently educated person can teach himself how to do just about anything.

Of course, I am the guy who didn't buy any books in college...

WJid="blue">

[davidlord]

Mike,

I have a PIA I just don't worry about anybody signing it. I don't even have a place for them to sign it. Its at the front of the report and basically says by using this report you agree to blah, blah, blah. In the end a PIA isn't going to save you if your a knucklehead.

Not trying to change the thread it just seems most HI's are more concerned about who may sue them.

I'm just saying I don't need a $1200-1800 class for me to use my IR cam for what I do. Did anybody get "certified" to use a moisture meter or a laser thermometer? I will get the level 1 cert at some point when things are slow but I don't see it as a necessity.

Just my 2 cents.

[SonOfSwamp]

Three things come to mind:

1. There is a school of thought that says HIs don't really need contracts. I've heard/read the arguments, and I think they hold up (but don't go by me). The reasoning goes something like this: No contract, no breach of contract. If you're negligent or commit fraud, no contract will save you.

2. As brother Kurt has told us more than once, portable testing equipment is generally quirky and unreliable. Those who think they need training on their gear -- and those who think they don't need it -- are still going to have to convince customers, judges, juries, argumentative builders and RE agents, etc. that they know what they're doing with their portable gizmos. As in any formal argument, the guy who can read, write, reason and persuade will win. The guy who quit worrying about all that reading & writing stuff in the 8th grade will face an uphill struggle.

3. Let's just say I buy an IR cam, go get all trained up, and then start doing IR scans. What if a knucklehead trained me? And what if I'm a bonehead, and I believed everything my knucklehead "instructor" told me? What good was the training if I walk out the door a "carrier" of folklore, and dumber than I was when I walked in?

I bring this up because it's clear that at least some -- maybe most -- HIs don't get out of "school" with a lot of useful and durable knowledge. And it's been that way for at least 30 years.

WJ

[qhinspect]

Originally posted by SonOfSwamp

Three things come to mind:

I bring this up because it's clear that at least some -- maybe most -- HIs don't get out of "school" with a lot of useful and durable knowledge. And it's been that way for at least 30 years.

WJ

I agree! I love when these classes use the words such as "Fast Paced".[:-censore

[Terry G]

We are lucky to have so much IR knowledge on this thread.

I just have a couple of questions?

David - You state the following on your website "Infrared technology is not magic and its not x-ray vision however, in the hands of a trained inspector the use of an infrared camera will greatly reduce the chances of hidden problems going undetected. What's your inspector looking at?" Very well worded I might add. Couldn't agree more. Problem I am having is I'm alittle confused about the word "trained". I thought you just said training is not needed for what you do. What your telling us and what your telling your customers seems to be different? Which is it?

Chris - Your website says "Specialist in Moisture detection and Thermal scanning". The last time I checked Specialist was defined as "someone who is an expert in, or devoted to, some specific branch of study or research". Again there seems to be a difference from what is said here and what is being said to potential clients.

Interesting how you guys have had your cameras for a couple months and have it all figured out. Shows how dumb I am. I am a level II and have 5 years experience of using IR in building diagnostics from residential, commercial, retail, industrial, schools, and even state legistative buildings. I never thought of just decieving my clients by mis-representing my qualifications.

Terry

[davidlord]

Terry,

No difference. You just decided to make an assumption. If I said level 1 trained inspector, or such and such trained inspector, or maybe had some nifty little IR logo you would have a point. I consider myself trained in the use of my IR camera from the experience of using it. No deceit implied or intended. If you knew me personally you would know that assumption is incorrect.

Like I said. Using IR in residential home inspections is just not that difficult at least for me its not. I'm comfortable with that. If you want or need level 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 then by all means get it. If I was in the business of inspecting commercial, retail, schools, and even state legislative buildings I would probably want some kind of moniker.

Thanks for visiting my website though.

This message was brought to you by a rural Florida high school graduate. Is this a great country or what.

[Chris Bernhardt]

Specialist in Moisture detection and Thermal scanning"

Did I say that? Well if I did I guess it must be true.[]

Some people put a lot weight on this cert stuff. And when I say cert I mean whatever name you want call a piece of paper where somebody else has ordained you or confered upon you master yoda status.

It is meaningless BS. I can tell you story after story of bone headed maneuvers by so called MIT engineering grads, grads from other schools with advanced degrees in this or that from my personal experience during my tenure in engineering.

These papers only bolster the pride and arrogance of these individuals goading them into believing that they knew something more than everybody else.

Nobody holds the patent on the principles of physics, anybody with half a brain and the internet can learn more about them in an hour than a college grad could learn in a term 20 years ago.

One of the hallmarks of these individuals is that they run around making claims that only they or their equally ordained brethren can perform some type of work. They never explain why.

They know that anybody with any amount of basic knowledge in physics and logic can knock them out of the ballpark.

I know cause I use to do it on a regular basis, and boy they hated it!

Chris, Oregon

[Richard Stanley]

I have owned and have been using an IR cam for a little over 2 years. I did not receive level 1, 2, etc. I did, however, attend a 2 day basic course by Flir for the purpose of gaining a little technical background about the toy I was using and, specifically, to know what I was seeing with the cam. The operating instructions that are furnished by the manufacturer are pretty good. After that it is find , but, verify. I never make a call based solely on the IR - always verify with another method. I use the cam on just about every inspection for my benefit. It saves time and increases my comfort level in knowing I have a better chance of 'not missing something I should have found'. One little thing I picked up in that class - When you think you see something - look at it from a different angle. Amazing piece of advice.

[Chris Bernhardt]

Just in case you haven't figured it out...

Certing up is a political measure.

The training portion is intended to lead you to an educated state on the subject.

That means in the end you should be armed with an adequate number of questions to make intelligent investigations.

The preliminaries these days, the physics, are easy to come by. You don't need to feel special because you know them.

In other words I can hand you an IR camera and explain all of the physics and you'll still not know how to interpret the anomalies.

It's the questions that you're after.

A question like - How long does it take water dripping from a leaky tub drain to show up thermally on the other side of the drywall ceiling?

An experiment will tell you the answer in two minutes without knowing any of the physics.

Chris, Oregon

[Terry G]

David -

"Infrared technology is not magic and its not x-ray vision however, in the hands of a trained inspector the use of an infrared camera will greatly reduce the chances of hidden problems going undetected. What's your inspector looking at?" Are you serious. Your telling me your average client is not going to assume that you have had some kind of training to use IR after reading that statement. Wow!

Chris -

What is it with cert stuff. If you go back and look at my original post I never mention certification. You do. The level I & II training is what everyone can benifit from. No you don't have to get certified. Infact just going to the training doesn't get you certified. You have to have 900 documented hours and pass the ASNT tests to even think about meeting certification requirements.

Richard - Excellent piece of advice. You never shoot at something straight on. That is IR 101 and would be one of many things you learn in a level one Class. It might seem obvious to the 1% club here on this sight. But to new inspectors or new owners of camera's something that simple can really mess you up and make you look bad infront of a client. Level I covers all that and more.

The part I don't understand is why people are investing in Thermal imaging just to use as a tool for home inspections. Your making a good investment in an IR camera. Why not get maximum pay back for that investment. Thermography is a seperate business on it's own and has been. The residential market is basically untapped because most full time thremographers are making 700-1500 or more a day on the commercial and industrial side. Why limit yourseleves. Even if you don't believe that you will learn anything, the investment in those classes can pay for itself in weeks. Right or wrong most architects, roofers, insulation contractors will not use you with out Level II training. I'm trying to get more people into IR not scare them away. It is a perfect business to compliment Home inspections. 50% of my business is IR related. Most IR inspections earn me much more than home inspections and I have less over all time invested. I don't know who can argue with that. I'm sure someone will.

Terry

[davidlord]

Think whatever you want Terry. I've stated my opinion.

Missing insulation in an unaccessible attic.

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Active roof leak around chimney (verified with contact moisture meter)

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Overheated Breaker

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Overheated Service Wiring

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Roof leak at bottom of valley (verified with contact moisture meter)

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How am I doing on my analysis so far Terry?

I'll post examples of some anomalies and how through the power of channeling a level 3 thermographer I reach my conclusions.

[davidlord]

I'm not try to be a smart ass so don't take anything personally.

I do have a very sarcastic sense of humor (often not appreciated by my wife of 21 years)

[Erby]

Well, David. I'm glad to know I'm not alone in having a wife who often does not appreciate a good dose of sarcastic humor! I'll bet there's others out there with the same dang problem.

It's funny to ME!

[kurt]

The thing that I find refreshing in this exchange is folks are willing to challenge the idea that information is the sole domain of particular individuals that got there first.

The Level I training I've been exposed to is information that, given a simple community college structure, would be stuff that would be assigned over the weekend with a pop quiz on Monday.

The idea that we have to pay $1600 to have someone I've never heard of explain things that can be understood by anyone with reasonable cognitive skills, grates on my sensibilities.

The higher level stuff, honestly, I have no idea. But, the Level I stuff is very, very basic, and very, very overpriced. I don't like being taken advantage of because some group has decided that they are the bestower's of competency.

[Chris Bernhardt]

If you go back and look at my original post I never mention certification

Oh, my mistake. I thought they gave you one of those paper diplomas that certifies that you took level 1 training etc.; I've got one right on the wall that I'm looking at.

If you could run down to Wal-mart and pick up an IR camera for $100, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Could someone please tell me have they heard of IR foo pahs by HI's that weren't unverified calls?

Let's start there because so far I have only heard of the stories of HI's, supposedly trained ones, that have created all this hoopla because they made unverfied calls.

Chris, Oregon

[Chris Bernhardt]

The part I don't understand is why people are investing in Thermal imaging just to use as a tool for home inspections.

Well, for one thing in this slow time, who wouldn't invest $4000 -$5000 to get back 10 times that this year just because of the wow factor?

Your making a good investment in an IR camera. Why not get maximum pay back for that investment. Thermography is a separate business on it's own and has been.

There is only so much money a guy can reasonably make in a day on a sustainable basis.

The residential market is basically untapped because most full time thermographers are making 700-1500 or more a day on the commercial and industrial side.

Where? Do any of the Oregon inspectors know of anyone doing this?

Why limit yourselves. Even if you don't believe that you will learn anything, the investment in those classes can pay for itself in weeks.

Why pay for the expensive classes? There's plenty of information already out there on the internet, minus the piece of paper that certifies that you paid ridiculous amounts of money to get a piece of paper that says you took a level N course.

Right or wrong most architects, roofers, insulation contractors will not use you with out Level II training.

Well, possibly some of them up in Portland, but the rest of the state?

I'm trying to get more people into IR not scare them away. It is a perfect business to compliment Home inspections. 50% of my business is IR related. Most IR inspections earn me much more than home inspections and I have less over all time invested.

Well, my experience has led me to believe that HI work in my area is pretty much all or nothing. There are several other avenues before me but they all pay about the same. I don't believe that an IR only biz will be sustainable in my area. These cameras are going to keep dropping in price. Soon, most subs will have them.

I don't know who can argue with that. I'm sure someone will

You bet. I think you're saying that you're pushing the level N training stuff cause some HI's perhaps have messed up?

I prefer to look at the mess ups and find the simplest solution. I say there are only a few ways to mess up and that any intelligent HI can easily avoid them.

Chris, Oregon

[SonOfSwamp]

Maybe it's just me, but couldn't a savvy HI find these wet spots with, say, a Tramex moisture finder and a decent handheld IR thermometer?

I used those cheap(ish) gizmos for 20 years, and best I recall never had a false negative, false positive or complaint. Heck, 90+% of the wet things I saw could've been identified by a one-eyed man on a running horse.

I think I've spotted an analogy: Yesterday, on TV, I heard Dave Ramsey explain how it doesn't make sense to spend $150,000 on a college education if you're aiming for a career as a $30K a year social worker. No offense to social workers. It was just a cost/benefit analysis.

Anyhow, $500 worth of gizmos met my every water-finding need.

WJ

[davidlord]

Sure most of the stuff I have detected with the IR I would have found anyway. Somethings I would not have found.

You could argue that if you can tell if something is wet just by touching it then who needs a moisture meter.

The one eyed man on a running horse is just funny and made me chuckle out loud.

I think most folks who don't use IR think it's not applicable, to expensive, or you can do the same thing without it or worse yet their gonna get sued. Folks that use IR and have completed level 1,2, whatever tend to think that an HI that's using IR without training is an idiot and just doesn't understand the science of IR. Then theres folks like myself that decided to buy one and found out that for HI work it's a great tool, makes for great marketing, not to mention the wow and in my case fun factor.

I gotta go drain some more water out of the pool.