When Inspection Articles Make You Say, "What the?"

[ozofprev]

Originally posted by hausdok

Hi,

Not trying to throw any more wood on this fire, 'cuz I hate it when I see good friends getting riled at one another, but there's this.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

I don't know that it's clear yet whether anyone is riled here - you know the "Chad's a pompous ass" is an inside joke. He's one of the best!

My interest comes, in part, because the insides of many of the Habitat for Humanity homes are gutted and I'm interested in whether there is any factual information wrt arsenic - something I hitherto never considered.

Here to learn...

[hausdok]

The author of the article in question may have gotten the arsenic idea here. Click on "View PDF" or "View HTML" and then scroll down the page.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[ghentjr]

Originally posted by Les

"

In closing, and for John in particular, I have mixed plaster with a horse hair binder.

I guess the John you refer to is me. I don't know why. I wrote to the reporter and told her the information she presented was not accurate and suggested an inspector who did not have all the facts or presented them poorly. (I probably did not make that clear in my post)

I renovated and lived in an 1860's farm house in New Jersey and all the plaster I pulled from the house was loaded with hair. I am not sure about the arsenic but that was in 1971 and I am still kicking.

[ozofprev]

Or perhaps they got the idea from reading the JLC. From the July 2004 issue (In The News):

“The hides were soaked in a slurry

of lime and arsenic,â€

[hausdok]

Hi Gary,

That's the article found at the last link I posted above. Interestingly though, if you spend some time reading the literature, and the first link I posted today, you'll see that wallpaper applied over plaster was well known to have arsenic and when it became moldy gave off aresenic fumes. So, it's possible that, though tanneries did use lime and arsenic to strip horsehair, maybe the arsenic poisonings associated with plaster more than a century ago were from wallpapers and not the plaster itself.

While poking around on the net, I did find a few instances where people who were remodeling their homes had become ill after breathing plaster dust during demolitions and they were casting around on the net to find out whether they'd been exposed to asbestos or not. I think it's at least plausible that some hyper-sensitive person might be affected.

This sounds like something that needs to be featured on Myth Busters.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Les]

John G,

truth be told, you and me are about the only two around here that could possibly remember. In fact, you aren't the right John. Coker has been poking at me about being an old timer and behind the times! I enjoy it.

Mike O,

Nice articles. I understand that wallpaper circa 1920 used arsenic in the pre-treatment of paper in preparation for printing. No facts to back that up, just something I remember from some training at Sherwin-Williams classes in Cleveland a few hundred years ago. I also recall hearing that Lydia Pinkham's Tonic had a trace amount of arsenic, for those that care to know. Keep up the good work of stirring up the pot!

[ozofprev]

Mike,

Absolutely true. I just didn't want to muddle the waters with a wallpaper discussion. The "cake" - arsenic and all - dumped straight into the plaster was enough for me to show the whole thing is not a joke. Am I going to worry about it? NFW I agree it's minor - just didn't like the wholesale, "That guy must be a jerk" response. Never do like that.

Oh, Monet and Van Gogh's problems were thought to possibly be due to arsenic - I left that out too.

But, it's all good. Spring is here! The foot of snow on the ground should be shrinking daily.[:-thumbu]

[hausdok]

Originally posted by Les

Mike O,

Nice articles. I understand that wallpaper circa 1920 used arsenic in the pre-treatment of paper in preparation for printing. No facts to back that up, just something I remember from some training at Sherwin-Williams classes in Cleveland a few hundred years ago. I also recall hearing that Lydia Pinkham's Tonic had a trace amount of arsenic, for those that care to know. Keep up the good work of stirring up the pot!

Some of the old texts I came across on Google Books talked about how arsenic was use a lot in dyes and inks and gave examples of folks who worked in libraries and counting houses getting arsenic poisoning from thumbing pages of books and piles of printed money and constantly wetting their fingers with their tongues.

I think it's possible but I also think the probability, given the precautions people take today wearing respirators when working in dirty environments, make it very unlikely.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[kurt]

Old properties are so full of toxic crap, just about toxic material could be present in just about anything.

New properties are also full of toxic crap; formaldehyde, VOC's, epoxies, fumes of all varieties, etc.....

Note to self: Be careful when working construction projects. Wear a respirator.

[Bill Kibbel]

Originally posted by ozofprev

Hi Bill,

Have to admit that I'm not sure if you are referring to the kool-aid inspector, me, or both. Anyway, I'm always open to new information. I see a lot of lath and plaster homes in Buffalo. I see many non-load-bearing walls covered with the stuff and I have read several articles on how to repair it. I appreciate its texture and its beauty - especially compared to gypsum. But arsenic in horse hair? It's all new to me. Rather than slam someone as incapable of cognitive thought (don't know what other kind there is), I like to be given references with facts. To me, that's what sites like this are for.

Although the third plaster layer did not normally include any animal hair, I know that the render layer and floating coats often did.

You are likely the one best qualified here to educate others on early building materials and practices. You are normally very helpful and not insulting. Was horse hair not one of the animal hairs used? If horse hair was used, then why was it different from 'other' horse hair that did contain arsenic? I truly don't know - and I think you must. What I gather at this point is that some arsenic might exist in old plaster but the amount is so small as to be insignificant except to those who are unreasonably phobic. I just like to know the facts.

My rant wasn't aimed at you or anyone that contributes to TIJ. I posted the comment immediately after reading the link in the first post. I am just now reading subsequent posts.

I thought this folklore was put to rest back in 2004.

A geologist, studying tanneries in the mid-Atlantic, found receipts indicating small quantities of horsehair from one tannery was sold to plasterers. He also found the tannery used lime (not the kind prepared to be suitable for plaster) and arsenic in processing hides. It was then implied that there might be arsenic in plaster. A few in the media picked it up, created a false link between what was "discovered" and a possible health risk. They quickly dropped it when they were shown that there was absolutely no credible evidence of arsenic in plaster.

My precipitant comment was made as a reaction to calls and e-mails I receive regularly, asking for corroboration or clarification of folklore stated as facts by home inspectors

[ozofprev]

I figured it was something like that.

My habitat buds can feel free of arsenic and just hope the respirators keep the other crap away!

You knows your ship![:-thumbu]

[Bill Kibbel]

Originally posted by hausdok

Hi,

Not trying to throw any more wood on this fire, 'cuz I hate it when I see good friends getting riled at one another, but there's this.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

I'm impressed with everyone's research effort, but direct experience won't be indexed by Google.

That's an interesting case Mike, but I think the County Analyst got it wrong.

It's possible that in this particular location, the aggregate used for masonry wall construction came from ground up slag, a waste product from several local furnaces (the name of that town "Cinderford" likely came from the piles of slag from all the furnaces in that area of Gloucestershire). Some slag can contain arsenic, if the furnace was operating at a temperature which did not gas it off into the atmosphere.

The statement "He had found definite traces of arsenic being given off in gaseous form from the wall" is completely unsupportable. It's not possible without intense heat (like a smelting furnace). The fact that the greatest amount of arsenic was found in the victims' lungs indicates arsenic oxide, well known as being given off in deadly quantities from smelting furnaces. I'll bet they lived down-wind from the furnace.

[Bill Kibbel]

Originally posted by ozofprev

Or perhaps they got the idea from reading the JLC. From the July 2004 issue (In The News):

“The hides were soaked in a slurry

of lime and arsenic,â€

[hausdok]

Originally posted by inspecthistoric

Originally posted by hausdok

Hi,

Not trying to throw any more wood on this fire, 'cuz I hate it when I see good friends getting riled at one another, but there's this.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

I'm impressed with everyone's research effort, but direct experience won't be indexed by Google.

That's an interesting case Mike, but I think the County Analyst got it wrong.

It's possible that in this particular location, the aggregate used for masonry wall construction came from ground up slag, a waste product from several local furnaces (the name of that town "Cinderford" likely came from the piles of slag from all the furnaces in that area of Gloucestershire). Some slag can contain arsenic, if the furnace was operating at a temperature which did not gas it off into the atmosphere.

The statement "He had found definite traces of arsenic being given off in gaseous form from the wall" is completely unsupportable. It's not possible without intense heat (like a smelting furnace). The fact that the greatest amount of arsenic was found in the victims' lungs indicates arsenic oxide, well known as being given off in deadly quantities from smelting furnaces. I'll bet they lived down-wind from the furnace.

Hi Bill,

I guess nobody will ever really know. That article and the puff piece for the inspector do illustrate one thing though; it doesn't matter when it occurred, these things attributed to environmental factors are pretty darned tricky to nail down and tend to generate a lot of media hype.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Les]

Now I'm done with arsenic, I have to start working on Bill's use of "precipitant". These guys drive me nuts! horse hair, slurry, cake, oxide, respirator jeeeeeeeze

[Paul N Frey]

In my other lfe before "inspectin" 25 years ago I used to buy and sell - after a "real" retrofit of the home as opposed to the newer contractor splash and dash types out there now. I had an old gentleman that would replaster the entire residence using the old Keanes Cement instead of the new Imperial Coat. Hand mixed on the front porch in a wheelbarrow! He had been plastering over both lath and sheetrock for 60 years (was he ever good!) He told me that they used horse hair in plaster and sheetrock to give it rigidity - grey board had the least, green board a little more, and brown board the most. As far as arsnic went, he never mentioned it as an added component. My feeling is that if arsnic was present it was there as a by product. Besides, when you are a young contractor who cares about a little arsnic in the plaster, asbestos in the flooring, lead in the paint? If I were a young dumb buyer and considering an older home this article would probably keep me from entering into the contract as I would probably be dead or bankrupt shortly after moving in! As for the article - he makes it sound like all older homes should be donated to the fire department.

[RickSab]

I also found the tone alarming. He may be a good inspector, but I didn't feel he was promoting inspecting as much as he was scaring prospective buyers. Old homes have their issues. Some are well maintained others are not. What was the best practice when a home was constructed may not be now. To label all old homes as problems was wrong.

I think he may have hurt his business over the long run. Someone buying around the time of the article may call him but many more may pass on buying for a while.

As far as the arsenic, it's the first I've heard of, but isn't just as important to protect yourself from the dust when sawing through a wall. I doubt anyone will remember the arsenic angle anyhow. Look how many people burn treated lumber and plywood. They don't seem to care what they release into the air.

I also agree that if you want to get a story in the paper you should use multiple sources. A thoughtful article, written, edited, and proofed again for accuracy is best. It's like the nightly news. Just because some one in the media ask you a question, doesn't mean you need to answer.

Rick