Is venting fart fans into the attic within code?

[Brian G]

Having a range hood vented into an attic can have very serious implications in a worst-case scenario, far worse than a bath fan. Grease build-up in the vent pipe can catch fire in certain situations, creating a blow-torch in your attic. From the standpoint of potential liability (massive) vs. the cost to cure (nominal), it's a no-brainer. You don't want to leave it like that.

Brian G.

CYA And Sleep Better [:-sleep]

[Bradd Judd]

I just had to chime in on this one.......

I love going to a particular area in The Northwest Suburbs of Chicago, because it's garenteed for me to find mold on the roof sheathing from the bathroom exhaust fans exiting the air directly onto the interior of the roofing structure.

The municipality inspector must have thought this was ok (as well in his own mind) as the attic being "outside" since I find it on every single home in the same devlopment by the same builder of only 10-12 year old homes.....Let me see if I have a picture of this....

This is not the best one I had, but it gets the point across.......... [^]

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[Jim Baird]

Hey Swarga,

Your code citations sent me scurrying to the IRC2000, in effect in our woods.

Here is the section which makes it clear as mud about bath exhaust terminations. It's in the basic requirements for Light, Ventilation, and Heating. It is included in the exception that allows an alternate to natural ventilation.

IRC2000 Section R303.3 Bathrooms

"...Ventilation air from the space shall be exhausted directly to the outside."

[Jim Baird]

Sorry I skipped right over Chris' code reference to the bold print of swarga's.

Chris' nails it.

I don't agree, Hausdok, that code reference is a waste of time. Codes are minimum standards. If it doesn't meet the minimum, how can it be OK? Code references show that it is not just my opinion.

The logic that says the attic is outside just shows how lost one can get in the dark woods of interpretation. When your mother told you as a child to "go outside and play", did you ever, even in your inexperienced state, think that she meant for you to go in the attic and play?

[raerae]

Thanks for the info. I'm not willing to let this ruin the sale of my home, but was interested in whether or not it was a violation of code. I've only owned my home for about 2 years and was concerned that I was in over my head. Thanks for the reassurance that it is a cheap and easy fix. Being that it deals with the roof, perhaps I can get my HOA to rectify it.

[Jim Baird]

Hausdok,

I appreciate the spirited exchanges that go on in this forum.

I have learned a lot from them.

You certainly don't just rely on your common sense to see what you see and say what you say. Your training and experience put you way ahead of people who just know they want to buy a house, and hire someone with the knowledge and experience to represent them along the often treacherous path to the closing table.

Sadly, the International Codes specifically point out (I won't bother to cite where) that quality of materials and workmanship lies outside the concern of codes application. The model codes are sets of minimum standards that are judged to make a building reasonably safe to occupy depending on its intended use.

I don't cite codes in my reports, but I do make it clear that my findings are often based on model code standards, due to the fact that they are good, practical guides to building safety. I have been paid to revisit homes that were particularly bad, homes where the seller says, "Who cares what Jim Baird thinks? We know there's nothing wrong with them stairs!" Code citation then is a big help.

Regarding the "drop-off" figures, I never saw an IRC figure at 24" vs. 30" for guardrail requirement. It's been 30" since I've been code-certified (CABO 1998).

[cam]

I know this topic is old but I am going thru a home inspection for the sale of my home and this issue has come and I keep hearing several different scenarios so help me out. I bought my house in 97 and when I did my warranty order to the builder I noted that the bathroom fan vents have a open space in the attic before going outside. The builder called the plumber who installed them and he came out and said they were fine and within the limits (I think there was an open section in the pipe going out the attic-maybe 4 or 5 inches) anyways now we are selling our house and the home inspector for the buyer says this is wrong and they need to be totally vented to the outside. My husband does not want to change it-his theory is that the attic is well ventilated and we live in arizona so any moisture that does go to the attic dissipated pretty quickly anyways. Is there a website that I could go to and find out exactly what code is on this so I can deal with this issue with confidence? Thanks to anyone that can help.

[Scottpat]

Tell the buyer that you will not change it! It is a simple as that.

As for the code in your area, you need to contact the local building official. Call your city hall and they can help you. Codes can be interpreted and enforced in many ways. In my area they vent into the attic and the local code boy/girls are OK with it.

[hausdok]

Adding more moisture to an attic environment doesn't make sense and venting a bath fan to the outside is the sensible thing to do in any climate, regarless of any code.

A rain cap is about $15. at the local home center and a piece of ducting less than that. It takes a good roofer about 30 minutes to install a rain cap and another 5 to hook up the piece of ducting. Your total cost would probably be less than $200. In the context of things to worry about with a home sale, given the price of homes today, that's pocket change. Why not just do it?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by cam

I know this topic is old but I am going thru a home inspection for the sale of my home and this issue has come and I keep hearing several different scenarios so help me out. I bought my house in 97 and when I did my warranty order to the builder I noted that the bathroom fan vents have a open space in the attic before going outside. The builder called the plumber who installed them and he came out and said they were fine and within the limits (I think there was an open section in the pipe going out the attic-maybe 4 or 5 inches) anyways now we are selling our house and the home inspector for the buyer says this is wrong and they need to be totally vented to the outside. My husband does not want to change it-his theory is that the attic is well ventilated and we live in arizona so any moisture that does go to the attic dissipated pretty quickly anyways. Is there a website that I could go to and find out exactly what code is on this so I can deal with this issue with confidence? Thanks to anyone that can help.

On the one hand, the model building codes all say that bath exhaust fans are supposed to be vented directly to the exterior, not into the attic and then to the exterior. For instance, the 1995 edition of the CABO code (the one that probably applied in 1997) says in section 303.3 "Bathroom exhausts shall be vented directly to the outside." So, from a strictly technical, code-oriented viewpoint, your builder's plumber was wrong and your buyer's home inspector is right. The vent should have gone directly to the exterior.

On the other hand, if the condition isn't causing a problem, why fix it? I'd ask your buyers to ask their inspector if he saw any signs of moisture damage up there that he thought might be related to the improperly vented bath fans. If he did, for instance a halo of mildew around the roof sheathing near the exhaust duct, then it's a righteous request and I'd carry out the repair (cursing the builder the whole while). If he didn't see any signs of moisture damage, and he's just making the recommendation to be safe, I'd politely decline to make any repairs.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[kurt]

Spoken like a wise man.

[RobC]

"On the other hand, if the condition isn't causing a problem, why fix it?"

Because we never know the history of the home and the occupancy could change.

Moisture loads can change drastically between a retired 'snowbird' occupying the home 6 months of the year, and the new buyers with full time jobs and 3 teenage daughters.

Section 303.3 was developed for a very good reason; I wouldn't mess with it IMHO

[swarga]

Allow me to explain what they are talking about.

The plumber installed a metal flex line to the vent fan and ran it up to a hole in the roof sheathing. There is a vent cap installed the issue is the vent is four inches away from the opening. Not 4 feetaway not in the insulation, Not un-vented. We are talking about 4". I see it all of the time here.

In My opinion it does not need to be fixed.

Now if there was no other vents, I would write it up, if it was 4 feet from the opening I would write it up, but I am not going to pitch a fit over a 4" air gap.

[Chad Fabry]

In my climate it is almost always a problem and there is almost always moisture damage. I write it as a defect and recommend that it be corrected.

[hausdok]

Same here. I've had them where they're wired off with the nozzle halfway into the jack opening and found the decking around the opening rotting. I suppose there are climates where one can get away with it but I'd call it nonetheless. There's a reason that there is a male extension on exhaust fan outlets.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[RobC]

I've had this discussion with numerous trades and I always ask this question.

Is the vent terminating and/or exhausting to the exterior of the building?

The vent pipe should be continuous and connected to the outdoors without excessive bends, openings etc. In other words the conditioned air should not leak inside the building whether it be attic or joist space and it should be vented expeditiously.

4", 4 feet or a slight untaped joint is enough to disqualify the installation as appropriate. The vent is NOT vented to the exterior and should be repaired to prevent moisture related damage.

Scott, I don't mean to appear that I'm ganging up on you, it's just that I wouldn't want to give a new inspector reading this the impression that venting anything in an attic space is appropriate.

From last week; the people moved in before XMas.

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[swarga]

Rob, Don't worry, I'm a big boy and I don't think anyone is ganging up on me. Several people have mentioned climate makes a difference.

Kurt, Mike and you all live WAYYYYYY north of the Phoenix area.[:-jump]

Here it is not a huge issue, If I lived in Washington, I would always write it up.

If I lived in Calgary, I would still be recovering from the Stampede [:-spin] and wouldn't give a s#!t

[Brian G]

It's a non-issue here. I have yet to see a single bathroom exhaust fan vented to the exterior, or a single problem resulting from the lack thereof. Climate matters. I write it up if they leave the hose off because it blows a bare spot on the ceiling, but that's about it.

If I lived a few hours farther north I'd probably write it up everytime.

Brian G.

Maybe the Problem Is Yankees Farts [:-dev3][][:-dev3]

[Bill Kibbel]

I can understand why it's not an issue in AZ. When Scott takes a leak outdoors, it evaporates before hitting the ground.

[Paul MacLean]

I live in Austin. I've never seen a problem here from fans venting to the attic, but I still write it up. If pressed I can tell folks my bathroom fans terminate in the attic. I don't lose any sleep over it, but I'm not in the frozen north.

[kurt]

I am in the frozen north; if the fan discharges within a foot of the roof vent, I've never seen it be a problem, & I've seen thousands this way. I note it in new construction; that's about it.

[lallij]

[You talk code. Is that new house construction or remodeling? Can remodleing construction really be controlled?

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I found this on an inspection last week. This is a flex hose coming from the master bathroom fart fan. I have tried to find out via the IRC 2003 if this is legal. Can anyone confirm? This is venting directly into the attic over the garage portion of the home. I was taught in inspection training school that nothing should vent into the attic, but I do not know if that is code or just a recommendation.

Thanks,

Dan

[hausdok]

Hi,

Here're a few quotes I found doing a 5-minute search of the archives. One is clearly from 2000. I don't know when the others are, but I doubt that they've gone backward since then.

2000 Mechanical Code: 501.3 Outdoor discharge.

"The air removed by every mechanical exhaust system shall be discharged outdoors at a point where it will not cause a nuisance and from which it cannot again be readily drawn in by a ventilating system. Air shall not be exhausted into an attic or crawl space."

SECTION M1502

RANGE HOODS

M1502.1 General.

Range hoods shall discharge to the outdoors through a single–wall duct. The duct serving the hood shall have a smooth interior surface, shall be air tight and shall be equipped with a backdraft damper. Ducts serving range hoods shall not terminate in an attic or crawl space or areas inside the building.

IRC M1501.1 Outdoor discharge. the air removed by every mechanical exhaust system shall be discharged to the outdoors. Air shall not be exhausted into an attic, soffit, ridge vent or crawl space.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[truevalue]

Originally posted by chrisprickett

From the 03' IRC

303.3 Bathrooms.

Bathrooms, water closet compartments and other similar rooms shall be provided with aggregate glazing area in windows of not less than 3 square feet (0.279 m2), one-half of which must be openable.

Exception: The glazed areas shall not be required where artificial light and a mechanical ventilation system are provided. The minimum ventilation rates shall be 50 cfm (23.6 L/s) for intermittent ventilation or 20 cfm (9.4 L/s) for continuous ventilation. Ventilation air from the space shall be exhausted directly to the outside.

[truevalue]

Originally posted by n/a

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I found this on an inspection last week. This is a flex hose coming from the master bathroom fart fan. I have tried to find out via the IRC 2003 if this is legal. Can anyone confirm? This is venting directly into the attic over the garage portion of the home. I was taught in inspection training school that nothing should vent into the attic, but I do not know if that is code or just a recommendation.

Thanks,

Dan