Installer not reading the directions

[Phillip]

I guess the Installer are not reading the directions or just don't care.

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Label says 16 D nail and they use screws.

[Brian G]

I'd estimate about 1/3 to 1/2 of all folding stairs I see aren't properly installed. Very common.

Brian G.

We Don't Need No Stinking Instructions [:-dunce]

[Erby]

Phillip, I think you are way way way way off base here. I mean, do you really expect intallers to read the directions!!!!

Somewhere I've got a picture of a drywall screw right through the label that says "use 16D nail"

[Darren]

Speaking of drywall screws; how many kitchen cabinets do you find with drywall screws?

MANY!

[randynavarro]

Originally posted by Darren

Speaking of drywall screws; how many kitchen cabinets do you find with drywall screws?

MANY!

Lots. I used to write them up frequently but I'm getting a bit more forgiving.

There's bigger fish to fry. If someone can give me a good reason to start writing them again, I'll go for it.

[Brandon Chew]

Originally posted by randynavarro

Originally posted by Darren

Speaking of drywall screws; how many kitchen cabinets do you find with drywall screws?

MANY!

Lots. I used to write them up frequently but I'm getting a bit more forgiving.

There's bigger fish to fry. If someone can give me a good reason to start writing them again, I'll go for it.

How about this.

Drywall screws are designed to hold the weight of sheets of drywall, and they are strongest when the force is applied on them in the same direction as the shaft of the screw. They are pretty weak screws. I've snapped the heads off of them when trying to drive them into tight grained wood.

Use drywall screws to hang upper cabinets and you have a situation where:

-- Weight can be substantially greater than sheets of drywall

-- Substantially fewer screws are used than when you hang a sheet of drywall

-- The weight is being applied to the screws in their weakest direction, perpendicular to the shaft

Now, six year old Johnny is thirsty and wants a drink. The glasses are in an upper cabinet that is stacked full of dishes. He hops up to sit on the kitchen counter, opens the door on the cabinet, and then grabs on to the bottom shelf to pull himself up so he can reach the glass on a higher shelf....

[Jim Katen]

I've seen hundreds of drywall screws fail as they were being driven but I've never seen one fail after it was driven.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Brian G]

I've seen a lot of them fail as I tried to remove them as well, but I also can't think of a time when one failed between installation and removal. Nonethless, they are extraodinarily brittle screws with not much beef at the shaft, and I wouldn't consider using them to hold up folding stairs.

Brian G.

Maybe For My Wife to Use, on Certain Days [:-dev3][-crzwom]

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Brian G

I've seen a lot of them fail as I tried to remove them as well, but I also can't think of a time when one failed between installation and removal. Nonethless, they are extraodinarily brittle screws with not much beef at the shaft, and I wouldn't consider using them to hold up folding stairs.

Brian G.

Maybe For My Wife to Use, on Certain Days [:-dev3][-crzwom]

I don't like to see them holding up folding stairs, cabinets or anything heavy. But it isn't because I'm afraid that they'll fail. It's because I'm afraid that they failed when they were put in and, if they did, I can't see the break.

Oftentimes, they snap well below the head. In those cases, the head stays put, but it isn't connected to the shaft of the screw.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Erby]

I use this language:

===================

Drywall screws are being used to hold the attic drop down stairs in place. Most manufacturer's require size 16D nails to hold these stairs in place as drywall screws do not have sufficient shear (sideways) strength to support the weight placed on most attic ladders. For safety, I recommend that these screws be replaced with the requisite number & size of nails to safely hold the stairs in place in compliance with the manufacturer's instructions.

[Darren]

Erby,

I say just about the same thing except I tell them to use 1/4" X 3 lag screws (as per manufactures instuctions). Banging 16d nails into the ceiling joists will probably cause some cracking or nail pops.

[randynavarro]

Use drywall screws to hang upper cabinets and you have a situation where:

-- Weight can be substantially greater than sheets of drywall

-- Substantially fewer screws are used than when you hang a sheet of drywall

-- The weight is being applied to the screws in their weakest direction, perpendicular to the shaft

What if they're gold-colored? I've seen drywall screws and cabinet screws that look almost identical.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by randynavarro

Use drywall screws to hang upper cabinets and you have a situation where:

-- Weight can be substantially greater than sheets of drywall

-- Substantially fewer screws are used than when you hang a sheet of drywall

-- The weight is being applied to the screws in their weakest direction, perpendicular to the shaft

What if they're gold-colored? I've seen drywall screws and cabinet screws that look almost identical.

The gold colored ones are no stronger than the black ones or the galvanized ones.

Cabinet screws look different. Don't ask me how, they just look different.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Brian G]

Originally posted by Jim Katen

The gold colored ones are no stronger than the black ones or the galvanized ones.

That depends on which gold colored ones we're talking about. I've used thousands of what is labeled "particle board screws" at Lowes, and they're much more substantial than drywall screws (but still not right for a folding stair). Do they also make drywall screws that are gold in color?

Brian G.

Screwin' Around []

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Brian G

Originally posted by Jim Katen

The gold colored ones are no stronger than the black ones or the galvanized ones.

That depends on which gold colored ones we're talking about. I've used thousands of what is labeled "particle board screws" at Lowes, and they're much more substantial than drywall screws (but still not right for a folding stair). Do they also make drywall screws that are gold in color?

Brian G.

Screwin' Around []

Particleboard screws are different.

As I recall, drywall screws come with a phosphate finish (is that the right term?)(they're a dull black and they have a dry grabby quality, as if they'd been dipped in acid) a gold chromate finish (they're smooth and have a tiny resistance to dampness) and a galvanized finish. The phosphate ones tend to snap the most as you're installing them because they have the most friction. Once installed they were all pretty strong.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Brian G]

Originally posted by Jim Katen

As I recall, drywall screws come with a phosphate finish (is that the right term?)(they're a dull black and they have a dry grabby quality, as if they'd been dipped in acid) a gold chromate finish (they're smooth and have a tiny resistance to dampness) and a galvanized finish.

Ah-so. I haven't encountered the gold chromate variety, just the other two.

Brian G.

3 Flavors of Brittle []

[Brandon Chew]

Alright... I tried to keep my explanation simple, but I should have known better at TIJ where inquiring minds want to know!

The one handed typist has reached his limit for now. Stay tuned for a post that discusses the finer points of tensile and shear stress, force vectors and bending moments, hardness and brittleness, root diameter, screw head shape and length of threads along the shaft, and cascading failure.

BTW, I agree with Jim that my biggest concern is that there's a good chance at least one of the drywall screws was damaged during installation, but the head is still there and it looks ok. My other concern is with drywall screws that do not snug everything together -- from the head through the hanging rail and drywall and into the stud.

Meanwhile, can someone post some kitchen wall cabinet installation instructions that specify drywall screws. My bet is you'll find either #8 or #10 wood screws, panhead screws, or cabinet screws.

I leave with this parting thought. There's a reason why there is a market for cabinet screws.

[RickSab]

A true cabinet screw has a washerhead top. They provide a larger flat surface to contact the wood hanging strip. They are often a number * or 10 screw. Most drywall screws are a #6. A drywall screw also has a tapered head that helps set it into the drywall. Much like a wood screw. This type of top can split the wood strip if driven too deep.

I agree that a big problem with drywall screws is how many break when installed. An installer will not spend the time to remove it. He will leave it in. I would still make note of the screws just to CYA.

Rick