Layers of shingles?

[JohnC]

How many layers of shingles does this look like? Unless I’m losing my eyesight I believe it’s two. The realtor e-mailed me and said the owner stated that the two layers are a grace ice and water shield and one layer of shingles. (8 years old) In addition there is a small sunroof and the shingles are in poor shape with a lot of cracking, these shingles need replacement. The owner said they are also only 8 years old, but regardless they need replacement. I lifted up a couple of edges and did not see much of an ice & water shield. I am enclosing a few photos. Thanks for any input it’s always greatly appreciated.

John C

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[kurt]

I'm seeing 2 layers. The last photo looks like 90# felt, not ice & water shield.

If it is ice & water shield, it's installed improperly. It should be wrapped down behind the gutter.

[Brian G]

The first photo definitely looks like two layers of shingles; the last one, not so much. That 4th shot appears to be a cut (?). I have no idea what Grace Ice & Water Shield looks like, but I'm sure someone farther north will.

Brian G.

No Ice Down Here to Shield [8D]

[Bill Kibbel]

Pics # 1&2, clearly show 2 layers.

Here's a lighter pic 2:

The last pic looks like felt, starter, first layer, then a second layer without a starter.

[Brandon Whitmore]

The first photo definitely looks like two layers of shingles; the last one, not so much. That 4th shot appears to be a cut

I agree with Brian.

The shingles do not look that old.... I can't tell from the pictures why there are cracks present.

Also, the original layer of shingles on the rake edges don't look worn (look newer)- -it's got me stumped.

[davidlord]

How old is the house? Is it old enough to make two layers a possibility? Take a look in the attic at the nails protruding through the sheathing and that will help determine the number of layers.

The key slot is pretty narrow indicating the shingles are not that old. Eight years sounds (and looks) about right.

[Brandon Chew]

FYI- I've seen some roofs where the roofer applies an extra layer of shingles at the rakes. Could this have been the case here?

The tip about counting nails in the attic is a good one and can be used to confirm other observations about number of layers present. Nails are supposed to penetrate at least 3/4" into the roof deck. If the deck is sheathing they should come all the way through.

[Brandon Whitmore]

FYI- I've seen some roofs where the roofer applies an extra layer of shingles at the rakes

Brandon,

do the roofers install the shingles on the rake edges horizontally or vertically?

Many roofers in this area will lay the shingles vertically along the rake edges to get a nice straight line at the rake. Could just be a regional difference.

[Brandon Chew]

I've seen it done both ways. I don't find either method recommended in the NRCA Roofing Manual and I haven't met a roofer yet whose opinion I trust enough to ask "why". Maybe they haven't heard of drip edge flashing?

[Les]

I always wondered why rake edges needed drip edge flashing? baiting.

[Brandon Whitmore]

I always wondered why rake edges needed drip edge flashing? baiting.

hmnmmm......

I'll see if I can get something goin here.

With proper overlap of shingles on rake and eave dripedges, I say flashing is not needed. Many roofs in my area do not have flashing at either location, and no problems arise.

[hausdok]

It's extremely common not to see drip edging used at the eaves here; I'd guess that I see it maybe 2 or 3 times on every 1000 buildings. However, I find damage to the edge of the decking on about 5% of those homes where it's been omitted. For those 5 out of 100 homeowners that omission is serious stuff.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Chad Fabry]

John,

Do all the roofers in your area install the drip edge after the ice and water or felt?

You folks having a sale on fascia?

[Les]

I can't remember the last house we saw without drip edge. Seldom on the rakes. Most drip edge around here is on top of ice and water shield and felt. Ya know it is easy to do it that way! That method also keeps the water from running over the edge onto the ground.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Brandon Chew

I've seen it done both ways. I don't find either method recommended in the NRCA Roofing Manual and I haven't met a roofer yet whose opinion I trust enough to ask "why". Maybe they haven't heard of drip edge flashing?

I was taught to run a layer of shingles parallel to the rake edge before applying the shingle courses. It protrudes out 1" beyond the 1x2 trim or the rake metal. I've done it this way on every roof I ever installed. It helps to keep the edge straight as you go up and the slight increase in thickness helps to direct water back onto the roof rather than out over the rake edge. This way, you don't get as much water flowing down the roof within the last foot of the edge.

If I use rake metal, it goes over the felt. I've never used ice & water shield on a rake edge.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Brandon Whitmore

I always wondered why rake edges needed drip edge flashing? baiting.

hmnmmm......

I'll see if I can get something goin here.

With proper overlap of shingles on rake and eave dripedges, I say flashing is not needed. Many roofs in my area do not have flashing at either location, and no problems arise.

Generally, I agree. But it depends on the siting of the house. You can't get away with that on the coast or up in the West Hills. The wind will whip the rain up under the edges of the shingles.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Brandon Whitmore]

Just curious Jim,

Do you do inspections at the coast?

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Brandon Whitmore

Just curious Jim,

Do you do inspections at the coast?

Yes. I charge a bit more and I try to schedule it so the inspection ends at low tide so I can go clamming. If it ends at high tide, I go fishing.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Brandon Whitmore]

Yes. I charge a bit more and I try to schedule it so the inspection ends at low tide so I can go clamming. If it ends at high tide, I go fishing

Ahaa. I tell people I will only do it on a Monday or Friday so I can extend a weekend for the same reasons.... I know where to refer the coastal inspections now though. I usually only do them for people that insist on having me do the inspection, unless it is dead slow.

[Erby]

Glad to see I'm not the only one that goes "marketing" after an inspection.

http://localism.com/article/147722/Kent ... ng-Fishing

[Brandon Chew]

Originally posted by Jim Katen

Originally posted by Brandon Chew

I've seen it done both ways. I don't find either method recommended in the NRCA Roofing Manual and I haven't met a roofer yet whose opinion I trust enough to ask "why". Maybe they haven't heard of drip edge flashing?

I was taught to run a layer of shingles parallel to the rake edge before applying the shingle courses. It protrudes out 1" beyond the 1x2 trim or the rake metal. I've done it this way on every roof I ever installed. It helps to keep the edge straight as you go up and the slight increase in thickness helps to direct water back onto the roof rather than out over the rake edge. This way, you don't get as much water flowing down the roof within the last foot of the edge.

If I use rake metal, it goes over the felt. I've never used ice & water shield on a rake edge.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Jim - I'll buy that, for running one strip parallel to the rake.

Installing an extra layer perpendicular to the rake, and only at the rake, seems goofy. During a tear off, would the roofer cut the shingles near the rake so that they would remain? That seems silly. If he did that, how would he install the underlayment in this area? If he did a complete tear-off and those are new shingles, it seems like a lot more work to run it perpendicular vs running a starter strip parallel to the rake like you described. Just thinking out loud....

[drcr]

From what I can see in the pics.

Two layers of shingles. The original shingle overhang was cut back from the edge.

The eave pic shows some type of underlayment, probably cheap ice and water shield (although it does look like 45lb felt), and one layer of shingles.

My guess is this house has a ventilation problem. Possibly the reason for the new shingles deteriorating. The roofer might have removed about 3 foot of the original eave shingles to install the ice and water.

I agree the i&w should be behind the gutter and under the drip edge.

Rake edges? That depends on local conditions.

When I started installing shingles, looonnnng ago, we gaged the edge by measuring with the index finger. From the tip to the first knuckle crease is 1". The far end was cut with snips and a hatchet with blade and a chalk line. We didn't waste shingles up the rake to use as a gage.

That is the basic scenario. There are a lot of variables.

If the roof was out of square, you had to chalk vertical lines and measure to the edge. This was the time of 3tabs.

If plywood was used for sheathing, and the carpenters ran it over the rake board, drip edge was installed to protect the plywood.

Sometimes the rake board was warped or bowed and drip edge would be installed to make it look better.

If I were in a high wind location, and still installing shingles, I think the new self stick starter strips would be the way to go on both the eave edges and the rakes.

Lots of variables and regional variations.