Asbestos in rockwool insulation?

[Neal Lewis]

Is there a chance of asbestos in older mineral or rockwool insulation?

[Steven Hockstein]

Hi Neal,

Yes-I always note it with a CYA comment about testing for asbestos, health hazards, etc.., you know the rest.

[Neal Lewis]

Steve, I've been searching and can't find anything about. I'll look some more.

I would join you on Thursday, but I'm pretty busy with work.

[Bill Kibbel]

Originally posted by Steven Hockstein

Hi Neal,

Yes-I always note it with a CYA comment about testing for asbestos, health hazards, etc.., you know the rest.

Where would one find a credible source that would indicate there's even a remote possibility of asbestos in any of the mineral wool products?

[Les]

I am not credible, but have never seen or read anything anecdotal.

[hausdok]

I've always heard that it's made from the slag left over from the steel-making process, which makes it basically an unrefined and poor quality glass. I've never heard of asbestos in rockwool; other things, but never rockwool.

I could be wrong, I've been wrong plenty of times before.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Steven Hockstein]

Neal asked if there is a chance of asbestos in "Old" rockwool insulation.

I remember being taught that some old rockwool insulation contains recycled materials (possibly with asbestos) and that there is no way to know for sure if there is asbestos in ANY building material without testing.

There is still a lot of controversy and discussion about old rockwool and I do what I think is best for my client. If I see old rockwool, I document it in my report and note that material testing is not part of my scope of work. I recommend consulting with an asbestos expert.

"Credible" or not, I would prefer not get into a battle with a client and his lawyer that specializes in litigating this stuff because even if you win, you lose. Check this out..

www.elslaw.com/asbestosproducts2.htm

[Bill Kibbel]

Originally posted by Steven Hockstein

Neal asked if there is a chance of asbestos in "Old" rockwool insulation.

I remember being taught that some old rockwool insulation contains recycled materials (possibly with asbestos) and that there is no way to know for sure if there is asbestos in ANY building material without testing.

Taught by whom? Other home inspectors? That's the only group that I've ever heard mention that there may be asbestos in mineral wool.

There is still a lot of controversy and discussion about old rockwool and I do what I think is best for my client. If I see old rockwool, I document it in my report and note that material testing is not part of my scope of work. I recommend consulting with an asbestos expert.

What controversy? Where can we read about it? How can anyone justify the cost to a client for testing.

"Credible" or not, I would prefer not get into a battle with a client and his lawyer that specializes in litigating this stuff because even if you win, you lose. Check this out..

www.elslaw.com/asbestosproducts2.htm

The only reason "Rockwool" and "asbestos" are linked in that list is because Gold Bond bought the Rock Wool name and Gold Bond manufactured some building products that contained asbestos.

Does anyone know of any test results that showed positive for asbestos?

Does any one know of any successful lawsuit for asbestos exposure from Rockwool?

http://www.historicbldgs.com/asbestos.htm

http://www.inspect-ny.com/sickhouse/asb ... m#rockwool

[Neal Lewis]

Originally posted by inspecthistoric

Originally posted by Steven Hockstein

How can anyone justify the cost to a client for testing.

A friend of mine had her house inspected recently. The inspector put in verbiage about testing the rockwool for asbestos. Now the buyer wants her to pay for testing.

[Les]

The sky is falling!

[jon_ran]

There is a chance for asbestos to be in anything related to an older home (pipe insulation, ceiling/wall insulation, textured coverings, tile, siding, soffits, fascia, roof, etc.), but specifically in rock wool - I would say no unless other materials are present that contain asbestos.

If the home has vermiculite insulation, then the chances are very high because vermiculite is mined in the same areas that asbestos is.

[Les]

Jon, kinda' a general statement about vermiculite. Do most inspectors know how vermiculite is produced?

[hausdok]

Think "Popcorn"

[Les]

Libby's Popcorn!

I guess what I'm trying to promote is gross general knowledge of methods and materials. As late as mid 1980's asbestos was mixed with gypsum board compound and shot onto ceilings and used for seams that got sanded! No one expects the inspector to know everything, just more than the client. We get into trouble when we promote ourself as an "expert". We are generalists with huge egos and the savior syndrome.

[jon_ran]

Originally posted by Les

Jon, kinda' a general statement about vermiculite. Do most inspectors know how vermiculite is produced?

I don't know what most inspectors know. I am not an expert on everything but I do have a lot of general knowledge about many things. Note that I did not say that if there is vermiculite that asbestos will be present, just that there is a higher likely hood for it to be in vermiculite than fiberglass, rockwool and bubble gum. If you want to know for sure, you gotta have it tested. I state what I know and make recommendation for repair, improvements, further evaluation, testing, etc. as needed.

[Les]

to be sarcastic - Jon, do warn about lead from 99.9% of older faucets? It is a risk.

[Neal Lewis]

I once read an article about a guy who got severe lead poisoning from making his own wine in an old bathtub.

[hausdok]

Originally posted by Les

to be sarcastic - Jon, do warn about lead from 99.9% of older faucets? It is a risk.

Not just faucets; also galvanized piping prior to about 1963. I do warn clients about that in older houses with galvanized pipe, of which there are many here.

I think warning someone of lead in older pipes and faucets makes more sense than talking about asbestos in rockwool, though.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[jon_ran]

I don't know what your beef is, but for the record...

I did not state that I warn of environmental hazards in every home that I inspect.

I did not state that I think that rockwool contains asbestos.

I did not state that I report the presence of lead in any portion of the water supply system from soldered joints.

However....

When I find vermiculite insulation, I feel obgligated to state that there is a possibility of it containing asbestos.

When I find the old corrugated insulation wrap on boilers, pipes and insulated flues that I KNOW is asbestos, I feel obligated state there there is a high probability that it contains asbestos.

When I find the white fabric looking wrap on heating ducts that I suspect is asbestos, I feel obligated to make the buyer aware that it may contain asbestos.

If I find transite roofing material, siding or panels used for soffits, I let the buyer know that it may contain asbestos.

When I find lead piping in the water supply system, I feel obligated to report it.

If I find mold anywhere in the home, ductwork, attic, crawl or basement I feel obligated to report it.

The presence of asbestos in a home is not a problem. Friable asbestos in a home is a problem. Ever heard of mesothelioma or asbestosis and any lawsuits associated with asbestos exposure?

As far as the lead in old faucets goes, no. I do not report it any more than I report LBP. The realtor is required by law to give the buyer a lead pamphlet on older homes. I will try to help the buyer identify areas that mey be exposed lead, but without testing I can not specifically say that any paint, solder contains lead no more than I can say that insulation contains asbestos.

[Tim H]

Mineral wools (including fiberglass insulation) are not produced with asbestos as a component. There are no carcinogens present in rockwool, and the strands are too large to have an asbestos like effect on the lungs. Mike is right about the use of slag, (in fact, there is a variant that is called slag wool), while additives are introduced to deal with impurities and undesirable reactions, the everday variety is basically made by melting basalt and chalk and then air dispersing it or spinning it exactly like you do to make cotton candy. I worked with industrial grade stone wool used as refractory insulation for years. It can be carcinogenic and dangerous; but the stuff used for building insulation and hydroponic gardening is not dangerous, and is as inert as inert can be.

The MSDS for stone/rock/slagwool are available on line.

Tim

[Steven Hockstein]

To add fuel to the fire, I found this online:

"....ARE THERE SAFE SUBSTITUTES FOR ASBESTOS?

Products like fiberglass and mineral wool are being used as substitutes or replacements for asbestos, but they are not safe substitutes. The few studies that have been done on these products so far indicate that glass fibers and non-asbestos mineral fibers (which are shaped similarly to asbestos fibers) may cause the same kind of lung scarring and cancers as asbestos. Therefore, until we learn more about the health hazards of these substances, you should limit exposure to fiberglass and rock wool just as you control exposure to asbestos. "....

Read the whole page at:

www.pp.okstate.edu/ehs/kopykit/asbestos1.htm

[hausdok]

Hi Steve,

Do you know how old that is? I seem to recall a paper a few years ago wherein someone, I think it might have been ASHRAE, conducted an extensive study of fiberglass and rockwool and found that it did not pose a hazard to workers.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Steven Hockstein]

Mike,

Sorry, I don't know the date it was posted.

Steve

[rpm24]

For the asbestos content of rock and mineral wools, see the following sources:

Cox, D. L. "Heat Insulation." Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers. Transactions 44 (1937): 476.

"New J-M rock wool plant will help meet Canadian demand for insulation materials." Engineering and Contract Record 61, no. 7 (1948): 7476.

Winer, A. "Mineral wool insulation from asbestos tailings." Canadian Mining & Metallurgical Bulletin 67 (1974): 97-104.

[kurt]

I tried to follow those leads in the usual ways, but kept ending up back here, so.........

I've never found it in any of the old rock wools I've seen. I tested approx. 2 dozen samples many years ago, but never found any ACM.

OTOH, that's a really small sample.

I tell folks those things. I mostly tell them to go the websites if they don't already have an opinion on asbestos. I tell them if they're concerned about asbestos, to have it tested. I tell them I read somewhere that in the full scope of the construction industry over a hundred years, there's asbestos in approx. 3000 building products. The stuff can be anywhere.

Can't go wrong telling people to test for asbestos, because it's impossible to know otherwise. I think asking the question of "is there a chance", leaves it pretty wide open. There's always a small chance.

I dislike rock/mineral wool for many more reasons than if it might contain asbestos. Every time I've found it, it's always in some sh**box habitation w/mounds of other nasty crap.