Main Breaker Disconnect 2

[jodil]

A home yesterday built in 57 has 3 panels. Two in basement, 1 in garage. How do you tell where the main breaker is?

Panel 1

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Panel 2

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and Panel 3

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Panel 3 cover would not come off (even with all my clients manly power.) It was in the garage.

Panel 2~ Does the "double tap" rule apply at fuses? Theres a couple of terminals with two and three hot wires attached?

Thank you,

Jodi

[Les]

Jodi, they are all a mess. In fact you, as an inspector, have to go with the label. Then you can report it does not operate as a main and defective.

You could make some guesses between #2 and #3.

[jodil]

Thanks Les,

What am I looking for the label to say? I mean, what should I reference in the report pertaining to the verbage on the label?

Originally posted by Les

Jodi, they are all a mess. In fact you, as an inspector, have to go with the label. Then you can report it does not operate as a main and defective.

You could make some guesses between #2 and #3.

[Tom Corrigan]

Jodi,

The main disconnect(s) is the one that is connected to the service entrance cable. Don't overthink the question.

Tom Corrigan

[hausdok]

Jodi,

I don't think you can necessarily use #3 as the main because it's labeled "main" unless you know that the pull fuse block in the fuse block that's labeled main is not. Obviously, the fuse box is the original but they may have modified the system and relegated it to sub-panel status (In which case it's wrong because of the EGC connected to the neutral bus, among other things. Where was the weatherhead and strike and where do the service entrance cables enter the home?

What's behind the narrow metal shield covering that gutter at that large pull-fuse block on the left side of that fuse box? See the middle pull-block that's labeled "main" in the fuse box? The feeders to that block come from that gutter. I'd expect that large pull fuse block in the gutter to be the main disconnect and the SEC's to enter that gutter behind that shield; unless they've reconfigured the service entrance point, that is.

Have you ordered Douglas Hansen's book yet? If not, times-a-wastin' that book will save you a whole lot of needless mental strain over the coming years.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[jodil]

Mike,

Yep I ordered it and its on its way. The weatherhead comes in at roof right above panel 1 & 2 (which are in the basement.)

I have no idea whats behind the gutter at panel 2. Honestly this mess overwhelmed me and all I could think was "oh shiittt!"

Also, dont forget my double tap question. On panel 2, does the double tap rule apply to fuses also?

[hausdok]

Originally posted by jodil

Also, dont forget my double tap question. On panel 2, does the double tap rule apply to fuses also?

Yep, if they were to do it right, they'd add a little sub-panel for those additional circuits, but most of the time they just add them in the original box.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[inspector57]

The reason double taps are an issue is the terminals for fuses, breakers, etc. are only designed for one wire in most cases, and the attachment of more than one means either one or all wires will have a poor connection which creates heat and other bad things.

If a breaker or other terminal is designed for more than one conductor (very few are) it should be listed on the panel or breaker.

If not, call it out, whether a fuse, breaker or neutral bar.

There appears to be lots of other issues in addition to double tapping that need a sparky's attention.

Don't hesitate to call for backup when you need it.

Find enough issues that you KNOW about to justify a visit by the electrician and be honest with your client that this is beyond your expertise level and the electrician may find even more issues that need repair.

You should never b/s your way through any issues, and especially not the electrical.

No one knows it all, but everyone can be honest and protect their client.

Ok, I'll get off the soap box now, didn't mean to lecture.

[randynavarro]

Without seeing more of the details with the wiring and all those panels, I'd be pretty comfortable and confident saying that all those panels need to come out and new, adequately sized service and panel need to be installed.

It's important that we know the specifics of why we make our final call, but for purposes of reporting, we should just get to the bottom line.

There's a mess there for sure, but I think your report can be fairly simple.

[Brandon Chew]

Originally posted by Tom Corrigan

Jodi,

The main disconnect(s) is the one that is connected to the service entrance cable. Don't overthink the question.

Tom Corrigan

I'm with Tom.

Find the service drop and the meter. Identify the cable that runs from the meter -- the service entrance cable (SEC). Trace the SEC until you come to "the main control and cutoff of the supply". This is the service equipment, main disconnect, or "main". Everything else labeled "main" is labeled wrong. Explain to the client why it is important to know where the main disconnect is located and why, when the client needs to use it, he/she may need to get to it quickly.

If you made a good faith effort to ID the main and could not do so (for example, you could not remove the cover) then say so in your report. There are other issues in your photos that need repairs by an electrician. Recommend to your client that they have the electrician locate the main and properly label it and all of the branch circuits in the home.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by jodil

A home yesterday built in 57 has 3 panels. Two in basement, 1 in garage. How do you tell where the main breaker is? . . .

Panel 3 cover would not come off (even with all my clients manly power.) It was in the garage. . . .

Panel 2~ Does the "double tap" rule apply at fuses? Theres a couple of terminals with two and three hot wires attached? . . .

From the pictures, I can't really tell where the service disconnect is. I might not even be able to tell if I were there unless I could get all of the panel covers off. It sometimes helps to look at the schematic on the fuse boxes. You may find that the service disconnect consists of all three fuse blocks in the fuse panel.

I approach these systems by removing the covers from every panel first, then tracing what goes where. From there, I can usually figure out what feeds what. If I can't remove a panel cover, I punt it to an electrician.

As for double taps, you aren't supposed to connect more than one wire to one terminal unless that terminal is identified to hold more than one wire. It doesn't matter if the terminal is connected to a bus, a breaker, or a fuse. Even single terminals have this limitation.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Richard Moore]

Just looking at Panel 1; it must be a sub-panel fed from the fuse-panel...right? That doesn't have separated grounds and neutrals as required for a sub-panel. In fact, you gotta love the main neutral lug where they have both the ground and neutral from the "main" panel and another large honking conductor (who knows what for) all under the same lug.

I think Randy has the right idea... "There are numerous areas of incorrect wiring within and around the two panels that I could access, and also a third panel I could not remove the cover from. (etc, etc, etc...add as much detail here as you want) You should have a qualified, licensed electrician fully evaluate the electrical service and circuit wiring and provide you with estimates for the needed repairs."

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Brandon Chew

. . . Everything else labeled "main" is labeled wrong. Explain to the client why it is important to know where the main disconnect is located and why, when the client needs to use it, he/she may need to get to it quickly. . . .

I'm not so sure about that. Presently, I'm in Eugene and I don't have access to any references. However, I believe that every panel may have a "main" breaker or fuse and can be labeled that way. Each house is only supposed to have one "service disconnect" though.

If someone out there has an NEC handy, you might check this for me.

- Jim Katen, Currently enjoying Dad's Weekend and U of O

[Brandon Chew]

Hi Jim. Thanks for the fine tuning.

For homes in NY we use the electrical section of the 2003 IRC. That section is based on the 2002 NEC but does not include the entire NEC. I ran a search on the IRC and I think the applicable sections are:

2003 IRC §E3304.11 Identification of disconnecting means. Each disconnecting means shall be legibly marked to indicate its purpose, except where located and arranged so that the purpose is evident. The marking shall have the durability to withstand the environment involved.

2003 IRC §E3606.2 Panelboard circuit identification. All circuits and circuit modifications shall be legibly identified as to purpose or use on a circuit directory located on the face or inside the door of the enclosure.

In the 2006 IRC, §E3606.2 (based on 2005 NEC) was changed to read:

2006 IRC §E3606.2 Panelboard circuit identification. All circuits and circuit modifications shall be legibly identified as to their clear, evident, and specific purpose or use. The identification shall include sufficient detail to allow each circuit to to be distinguished from all others. The identification shall be included in a circuit directory located on the face of the panelboard enclosure or inside the panel door.

I couldn't find anything in the IRC that said the disconnect on the conductors that feed a panel is required to be marked as "Main" nor anything that would prohibit it. The 200 amp Siemens panel that I installed (as service equipment) in my home a couple of years ago and is labeled "may be used as service equipment" (meaning it can also be used as an auxiliary sub-fed panel) has "main" stamped into the metal on the dead-front.

When I said "everything else labeled 'main' is labeled wrong" I was referring to the fact that in a single family home I should not walk up to three different panels and find all three with a breaker that is only identified "main". Assuming one panel contained the service equipment, the "main" in that panel should be identified as the "service disconnect" and the "main" in the other panels should be labeled "panel disconnect" or something similar. Labeled this way identifies each one "as to their clear, evident, and specific purpose or use" and includes "sufficient detail to allow each circuit to to be distinguished from all others".

Brandon