Erby Posted February 19, 2008 Report Posted February 19, 2008 Once again proving the value of participating in this forum and hanging your ass out for all to see: (Don't ask how the hell I screwed that up?) Jeff: Why didn't you grab my hand so I could feel it too? Ya know it's the last one in line that feels the shock. Remember the first grade electricity experiments. Everyone holds hands and the first person touches live electric and the last guy gets the shock. Don't remember what is was we touched. Some low voltage something. Bet they don't do that in school anymore! Is this better. more than one ââ¬Ågrounded conductorââ¬
Jeff Remas Posted February 19, 2008 Report Posted February 19, 2008 Erby said Jeff: Why didn't you grab my hand so I could feel it too? I just not that kind of guy[:-crazy]
Joe Tedesco Posted February 20, 2008 Report Posted February 20, 2008 New 2008 NEC Definition: "Ungrounded. Not connected to ground or to a conductive body that extends the ground connection."
Check It Out Posted March 15, 2008 Report Posted March 15, 2008 Some juridictions allow it if no more than three neutrals are crimped together and then placed in the lug. Originally posted by Bain Sorry to disappoint, but when I used to write it up as a defect, the electrician would come out and say it's fine. A few customers would call the city electrical inspection company, who said it was fine. I'm a prick, and I have no problem engaging in battles with trogladytes or anyone else, but this is one of those battles I waged many, many times, and lost every time. Jim K. has explained the ins and outs of doubled neutrals here and, as a result, I likely know more about them than 95% of the electricians in my area. But the opinions of the electricians and the AHJ supercede my own.
Brian G Posted March 15, 2008 Report Posted March 15, 2008 Originally posted by Check It Out Some juridictions allow it if no more than three neutrals are crimped together and then placed in the lug. But they're still wrong. Neither the manufacturers nor the NEC allow for any such foolishness. Brian G. Inventing Your Own Code Isn't Legitimate [:-alien]
Sodapop Posted March 22, 2008 Report Posted March 22, 2008 Originally posted by jodil Hi, The electrician that rewired this house is insisting that this is ok and there is nothing wrong with having more than one (in this houses case there are up to three) neutral wires under one terminal screw.. In fact, the house recently passed its city inspection! I know that more than one neutral under a terminal screw is not a good thing, as I have seen several different examples of scorched and melted wires from arcing. My question is, why would an electrician insist that its ok and how could this box possibly pass city inspection? Image Insert: 341.19 KB Image Insert: 178.23 KB You stated that the electrician rewired the house. When he rewired the house, did he install a new panel or did he just use the old one? From the second photo it appears that the panel is an older Cutler-Hammer panel. The breakers look older than newer breakers. I won't mention the two violations at the breaker. The white wire isn't reidentified as a hot. There are more than one wire under the breaker terminal. That model of CH doesn't allow that to my knowledge. When I started doing electric 15 years ago, more than one ungrounded conductor under a terminal was common practice. Our inspectors passed the install. Since, most of the contractors I have worked for and when I worked for myself, have done away with the practice. It was common to see no more than two wires under the terminal. Usually the ground wire and the neutral of the same circuit. I Do Not agree with putting more than one wire under the smae terminal if they are of different gauges. That is usually when you find the arcing. Manufacturers years ago never gave enough room or terminals to do your connections. The space you often have to make upa panel is often negligible. Manufacturers have offered better products as of late, I am a Square D fan myself. On another note: Please don't stereotype electricians. I know, there are bad ones out there. I've seen them myself. But let's be fair.
Jim Katen Posted March 22, 2008 Report Posted March 22, 2008 Originally posted by Sodapop . . . On another note: Please don't stereotype electricians. I know, there are bad ones out there. I've seen them myself. But let's be fair. I hope you'll find that we don't stereotype electricians in this forum. In my experience the electrical trade seems to have the highest percentage of competent members out there. There's certainly a greater number of competent electricians than there are framers, roofers, siding contractors, plumbers and -- gasp! -- home inspectors. - Jim Katen, Oregon
Sodapop Posted March 22, 2008 Report Posted March 22, 2008 Originally posted by Jim Katen Originally posted by Sodapop . . . On another note: Please don't stereotype electricians. I know, there are bad ones out there. I've seen them myself. But let's be fair. I hope you'll find that we don't stereotype electricians in this forum. In my experience the electrical trade seems to have the highest percentage of competent members out there. There's certainly a greater number of competent electricians than there are framers, roofers, siding contractors, plumbers and -- gasp! -- home inspectors. - Jim Katen, Oregon Fair enough. [^]
Sodapop Posted March 22, 2008 Report Posted March 22, 2008 This is what Square D says about multiple wires under neutral termination. Download Attachment: Multiple Neutrals Under Termination.pdf 62.25 KB
Sodapop Posted March 23, 2008 Report Posted March 23, 2008 This is what Cutler Hammer (Eaton) has to say about wires under neutral/ground screw terminations. NOTE: The file with FRONT describes the panel types and the file with BACK describes how the terminations apply to those panels. Download Attachment: 11_BACK[1].pdf 11.02 KB Download Attachment: 11_FRONT[1].pdf 15.04 KB Download Attachment: 19_BACK[1].pdf 11.02 KB Download Attachment: 19_FRONT[1].pdf 15.04 KB Download Attachment: 20_BACK[1].pdf 11.02 KB Download Attachment: 20_FRONT[1].pdf 15.03 KB Download Attachment: 21_BACK[1].pdf 11.39 KB Download Attachment: 21_FRONT[1].pdf 15.24 KB
Sodapop Posted March 23, 2008 Report Posted March 23, 2008 Originally posted by Erby I call it every dang time I see it. Some of the code bubbas recognize it as wrong. It's been corrected (according to my clients) several times, even in Lexington. (But I'm kinda crappy sometime about follow-up and don't know if they all were. I use this: =============================== The problem(s) discovered in the electrical panel such as â⬢ yada yada â⬢ more than one ââ¬Ågrounded conductorââ¬
Sodapop Posted March 23, 2008 Report Posted March 23, 2008 Some helpful links. Scroll to bottom for info on more than one conductor... http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/temp ... sequence=1 UL Code Correlation Database http://www.ul.com/regulators/codelink/
Jim Katen Posted March 23, 2008 Report Posted March 23, 2008 Originally posted by Sodapop This is what Cutler Hammer (Eaton) has to say about wires under neutral/ground screw terminations. NOTE: The file with FRONT describes the panel types and the file with BACK describes how the terminations apply to those panels. The Cutler Hammer documents all relate to accessory ground bars. The instructions don't relate to neutral wire connections. - Jim Katen, Oregon
Jim Katen Posted March 23, 2008 Report Posted March 23, 2008 Originally posted by Sodapop . . . 1) In reference to the Double Lugged Neutral link, what is 384-21? In the 1999 NEC, Article 384 was the Switchboard & Panelboard article. The whole thing was shifted to Article 408 in (I believe) the 2002 edition. That proposal was made without anticipating the re-numbering. 2) What is the date of thee log? That log was a proposal for the 2002 edition. I suspect that the actual log date was sometime in 2000. 3) Do you have a link to the UL 67 Standard Requirments? There's no such thing. UL charges about $1,000 for that standard. They're not likely to give it away by posting it on the internet. 4) What references do HI's use? The same as you've cited. 110.3(B) 110.14(A) 2002, 408.21 2005-2008, 408.41 NEC references pertaining to more than one conductor under one screw: NEC 2008 110.14 (A) Electrical Connections - Terminals ..... Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified. NEC 2008 408.41 Grounding Conductor Termination Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor. Square D - No more than one cunductor under a terminal for ALLid="limegreen"> of their panels. Cutler Hammer - Varies depending on the panel type. I disagree with you about that last one. I think that the directions are referring to grounding conductor terminations. - Jim Katen, Oregon
jon_ran Posted March 23, 2008 Report Posted March 23, 2008 Does the UL listing of a panel supercede what the NEC says? I have seen some panels that state that you can have X # 14 conductors or X # 12 conductors under one terminal, but they have to be conductors of the same size. I agree that it is not a good practice and I have seen overheated wires bunched together under one terminal so I recommend separating them, but if the UL approves it in the panel in question and no issues are found due to the multiple taps, the electrician will often say that there is not an issue. BTW... Even if the panel is listed as aproving the multiple taps, the conductors should still be checked to see if they are loose. I don't check to ensure that the lug is tightened to the required torque, just wiggle the conductor to ensure good connection. I often find loose conductors when they are bunched up.
Jim Katen Posted March 23, 2008 Report Posted March 23, 2008 Originally posted by jon_ran Does the UL listing of a panel supercede what the NEC says? No. The NEC was changed in 2002 to match one of the UL 67 testing requirements that had been in place for decades. I have seen some panels that state that you can have X # 14 conductors or X # 12 conductors under one terminal, but they have to be conductors of the same size. In almost every one of those cases, the panel instructions that you're talking about refer to the grounding wires not the neutral wires. In the remaining cases, my opinion is that the panel manufacturers used unclear language. I agree that it is not a good practice and I have seen overheated wires bunched together under one terminal so I recommend separating them, but if the UL approves it in the panel in question and no issues are found due to the multiple taps, the electrician will often say that there is not an issue. It's an extremely minor issue anyway. Compared to other problems that we find, this one's about as important as a mouse fart. If the wires are secure, nothing bad is ever going to happen as a result of this "error." An electrician working on this job in the future might be slightly inconvenienced because of his inability to isolate the circuit but most electricians can deal with that issue without breaking stride. If there's an electrician out there that can't deal with it, then someone ought to whack him on his Wiggy and make him go stand in the corner. BTW...Even if the panel is listed as aproving the multiple taps, the conductors should still be checked to see if they are loose. I don't check to ensure that the lug is tightened to the required torque, just wiggle the conductor to ensure good connection. I often find loose conductors when they are bunched up. Excellent observation. Whether or not the wires are loose is much more important than whether or not they're double lugged. -Jim Katen, Oregon
Joe Tedesco Posted March 23, 2008 Report Posted March 23, 2008 I received this from a subscriber today: "I answered a complaint in the Hollywood Hills and found this panel. This is a panel to a guest house which is fed from three wires dangling from tree limbs from the main house. There is no ground rod connection nor any water pipe bond. The occupants were complaining of getting electric shocks when washing the dishes in their kitchen." Look at this mess! Image Insert: 60.88 KB
Sodapop Posted March 23, 2008 Report Posted March 23, 2008 Originally posted by Jim Katen Originally posted by Sodapop The Cutler Hammer documents all relate to accessory ground bars. The instructions don't relate to neutral wire connections. - Jim Katen, Oregon I'm not sure where you find the wording "accessory" in the PDF documents I posted. (It is listed on their website as grounded) Image Insert: 44.08 KB This photo is from the CH webite. If you look at the terminal block on the left, the neutral and ground wires are both tied in to the same terminal block. Electrically speaking, the neutral and ground bars are the same unless the bonding screw is removed. (Typically done on main lug panels and/or services with disconnects.) I agree with another post that CH worded it wrong. A neutral wire is a grounded conductor. I still think the PDF I previously posted applies to the "more than one wire" diccussion. I would be happy to discuss any other opinions.
Jim Katen Posted March 23, 2008 Report Posted March 23, 2008 Originally posted by Sodapop Originally posted by Jim Katen Originally posted by Sodapop The Cutler Hammer documents all relate to accessory ground bars. The instructions don't relate to neutral wire connections. - Jim Katen, Oregon I'm not sure where you find the wording "accessory" in the PDF documents I posted. The word "accessory" isn't in the documents but those are ground bar kits meant to be installed in the field, not at the factory, thus my characterization of them as accessories. The instructions, which allow multiple wires under one terminal, have to do with grounding conductors, not neutral conductors. - Jim Katen, Oregon
Sodapop Posted March 23, 2008 Report Posted March 23, 2008 The word "accessory" isn't in the documents but those are ground bar kits meant to be installed in the field, not at the factory, thus my characterization of them as accessories. The instructions, which allow multiple wires under one terminal, have to do with grounding conductors, not neutral conductors. - Jim Katen, Oregon I can see your point regarding "accessory" to a degree. [^] I have purchased these accessories to field install knowing that they would be needed. I generally aalwys seperate my grounds and neutrals anyway. I believe, however, that NEC 2008 408.41 disallows such use for more than one wire. And even though some manufactures allow them, since the NEC does not, the NEC should take precedence. Any Thoughts?[?]
Sodapop Posted March 23, 2008 Report Posted March 23, 2008 Originally posted by jon_ran Does the UL listing of a panel supercede what the NEC says?id="green"> I have seen some panels that state that you can have X # 14 conductors or X # 12 conductors under one terminal, but they have to be conductors of the same size. I agree that it is not a good practice and I have seen overheated wires bunched together under one terminal so I recommend separating them, but if the UL approves it in the panel in question and no issues are found due to the multiple taps, the electrician will often say that there is not an issue. BTW... Even if the panel is listed as aproving the multiple taps, the conductors should still be checked to see if they are loose. I don't check to ensure that the lug is tightened to the required torque, just wiggle the conductor to ensure good connection. I often find loose conductors when they are bunched up. NEC 2008 90.5(A) Mandatory Rules Mandatory rules of this code are those that identify actions that are specifically required or prohibited and are characterized by the use the the terms shall or shall not. NEC 2008 110.14(A) Electrical Connections ....Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified. NEC 2008 408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not used for another conductor.
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