HI Probes for Rot - The Owner Is P****d - Too Far?

[kurt]

I'm amazed this thread has gone on this long, but now it makes me wonder about the "trouble" various folks have gotten into.

It makes me wonder about how they behaved on the day in question, it makes me wonder how they wrote their reports, how they responded to the initial complaint, how did they manage damage control, etc., etc.

I remember pushing my finger through some wads of painted over caulk several years ago. The seller went nuts. I was appropriately contrite, and offered to restore the woodwork to it's condition before I "damaged" it, and insisted that I pay the painting contractor that did the work to oversee my repair operation.

Then, I carefully delineated the process I would undertake for the repair, right down to the can of Great Stuff, the 6 tubes of caulk, and the 3 coats of paint. By the time I got done talking the whole thing through, the seller, the realtor, and my buyer all understood that the condition of the trim was garbage, the rot was everywhere, the caulk and paint were accelerating the problem, they all got embarassed, and the seller agreed to fix it right.

Sometimes I wonder if folks that get in trouble ever take the time to think things through, and just outsmart the dweebs.

After that, if one can't figure out how to perpetrate victimless "crimes" against houses without getting caught, they should find another line of work. No one's ever gonna shoot me w/a pellet gun 'cuz they're never gonna know what I was doing in the first, or last, place. They're just going to get a report describing reality, and if they want to argue about it, more's the pity.

[SonOfSwamp]

Originally posted by Neal Lewis

Originally posted by SonOfSwamp

Heck, if the wood looks rotten, it is rotten. It doesn't need probing, it needs fixing.

WJ

"The wood trim under the front bay window looks rotten. Poke it with an ice pick. If the ice pick goes in without much resistance, repair or replace the damaged wood and repaint."

Walter, these statements were both written by you. To me, they seem contradictory. You say you could recognize rot on a house from a Google satellite view (slight exaggeration), but you write in the report that it could be rot, but you're not sure. Go find someone other jerk to poke at it to determine if it is rot. You even give instructions on how to do it.

Well, see, you lost your place in the hymnal. Those are, well, sample statements that I might write if I saw some rot in exterior wood. The statments never appeared in any report, and I didn't say they did.

My intent -- which I guess I didn't convey clearly -- was: Any savvy HI ought to be able to point out rot and recommend repairs without poking holes in people's houses. The sample language I used is mainstream -- something a person might read in Family Handyman. I think it would be serve a customer or homeowner just fine.

I don't have a problem with the sample statement that I wrote saying that my imaginary rot looks like rot. As I pointed out in other posts, a TN HI has no duty to say or do anything about rot. That's the bug man's job in TN.

Now, if we're going to go all scientific, and write a scholarly paper about wood rot, and what to do about it, there would have to be more than a screwdriver involved. We'd need a wood biologist, which is a big upgrade from a screwdriver-jabbing HI.

I've got a letter in my office from a Forest Products Lab wood biologist that says it's devilishly hard to assess rot, especially the age and/or speed of rot, which are usually the things that customers and homeowners get so upset about. It occurs to me that a typical HI is singularly unqualified to do much more than say, "Looks like rot to me, better get that fixed."

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[SonOfSwamp]

Hindsight is 20-20. Wait until licensing comes to your state and pin-heads are in charge of picking apart inspection reports.

We've had licensing in TN for about two years now. When I saw it coming, I quit inspecting houses that were for sale, and focused on explaining house defects to lawyers, judges and juries.

Me, I'm happy to pick apart inspection reports. Some of them -- heck, most of them -- need picking.

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[kurt]

Originally posted by SonOfSwamp

It occurs to me that a typical HI is singularly unqualified to do much more than say, "Looks like rot to me, better get that fixed."

WJ[/blue]

I think that's about right. What are the differing results if one says

1) "There's rot in the eave; there might be more; here's a picture".

Or,

2) "It looks like a lot of rot in the siding/fascia/soffit; have a contractor open the wall up see how bad it is and what it costs to fix".

I think #2 lets the HI walk away clean, but maybe it's more complicated than that.

FTR, I don't want to be out of the HI biz (well, maybe if I was going into something like deep sea sailboat captain-ing, or multi-billion dollar internet wonder kind of business stuff, I'd get out of the HI biz). I still kinda like looking @ houses for folks. I think it's a pretty cool way to earn a living. I think folks get all riled up and don't think these things through adequately. Maybe someday I'll get screwed to the wall and change my mind, but until then, it isn't a bad gig.

[Les]

Kurt,

I agree with you. The reason for the photos I posted was they are obvious defects. I did not probe, poke, or do anything.

As a matter of fact I wrote "Active termites and poor grading has destroyed the entire east wood wall framing." "Clear evidence of charred wood framing in entire basement" "This house is structurally unsound." end of story.

I could have been an ass and recommended evaluation by a licensed builder and exterminator - but I am both and I just gave them my opinion. I could have listed all the ramifications and component parts and the history of the world and it still would not change my opinion. They paid me for my opinion and they got it. Want more?, then hire someone else. I assure you there could have been a 30page report written about all the "things". I must have a bad attitude!

If they want to come after me for the toxic stuff in the cabinets, floor tile or etc, then file an action.

It is imperative the inspector express their job and manage client expectations and that starts with the minute you meet them or send your report.

[chrisprickett]

Originally posted by kurt

Originally posted by SonOfSwamp

It occurs to me that a typical HI is singularly unqualified to do much more than say, "Looks like rot to me, better get that fixed."

WJ[/blue]

I think that's about right. What are the differing results if one says

1) "There's rot in the eave; there might be more; here's a picture".

Or,

2) "It looks like a lot of rot in the siding/fascia/soffit; have a contractor open the wall up see how bad it is and what it costs to fix".

I think #2 lets the HI walk away clean, but maybe it's more complicated than that.

We can split hairs and Monday morning quarterback all day long. I think the basic question is: Does a good (not great, not perfect, not genius) inspector deserve to have his life (and wallet) turned upside-down because he left a little wiggle room for a SOB homebuyer, with an axe to grind? (For the record- there was no rot in the wall, it was limited to the roof sheathing)

If the "typical" inspector is only qualified to say "Looks like rot to me, better get that fixed.", (I agree with that observation, BTW) that's what this poor sap said. He even took a few pictures of the rot, put pretty circles around it, and gave out copies to the buyer and agent, who both attended the inspection. For his advice, and $300 fee, he's lost his livelihood, spent 3 years dealing with courts, and will either end up paying out north of $20K or leave the state and pray there's no reciprocity.

I'm all for inspectors getting the proper education, writing bullet-proof reports, and charging accordingly. I'm also all for agents being 100% honest and forthright to all parties involved in the transaction. I just don't see either happening in my lifetime.

[kurt]

Well, of course the guy doesn't deserve to have his life screwed by an SOB customer.

I'm not trying to split hairs or quarterback; I'm just trying to figure out how a guy can do everything perfectly and still get nailed(?). Yes, I believe I protect myself by protecting my customer; how does that fit into this story, if at all?

It seems there'd be more to the story about a guy getting screwed badly for doing everything correctly. There's a lesson in here somewhere, and I'm trying to see it.

Apologies for carrying this thread on this far.....

[randynavarro]

I've got questions for Chris. This thread should be split but . . . I don't know how. My bad.

I get concerned when I hear guys like the one in Chris' example getting burned. Makes me not want to inspect any more. What was his biz structure?

Did he have an E & O policy?

If he did, did they reject his claim?

[SonOfSwamp]

If the "typical" inspector is only qualified to say "Looks like rot to me, better get that fixed.", (I agree with that observation, BTW) that's what this poor sap said. He even took a few pictures of the rot, put pretty circles around it, and gave out copies to the buyer and agent, who both attended the inspection. For his advice, and $300 fee, he's lost his livelihood, spent 3 years dealing with courts, and will either end up paying out north of $20K or leave the state and pray there's no reciprocity.

I'm all for inspectors getting the proper education, writing bullet-proof reports, and charging accordingly. I'm also all for agents being 100% honest and forthright to all parties involved in the transaction. I just don't see either happening in my lifetime.

I don't suppose you could show us the actual words the "poor sap" used in his report? But if you can, those words might provide quite a good teachable moment for the HIs who read it.

I haven't seen everything (yet), but I know that most of the HI reports I've read are full of errors and omissions that even a night-school slip-and-fall lawyer could pick apart easily.

Y'know, now that I think about it, the HI-lawsuit problem -- regardless of the facts of the case -- probably just boils down to the fact that when a word-parsing fight breaks out, the HI is almost sure to be seriously outgunned. Too bad he can't challenge the lawyer(s) to a carpentry contest.

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[chrisprickett]

Kurt & Randy,

Let me try to answer both questions:

(Please understand that I'm recalling this from memory)

Randy- The guy worked for a big company and had E&O. The provider found the claim to be without merit, and told the buyer so. The buyer went to our state licensing board and filed a complaint against the inspector. Between these two events, the inspector left the big company and went out on his own.

He gets a letter from the state, saying his report was not compliant with the standards (basically ASHI). The state said they were fining him between $3-$5K (I can't remember). He's fighting that. Buyer took state's findings and went after both the company and inspector. He has to fend for himself, or hire an attorney to try and force the company to represent him. We last spoke in August, so I'm not sure what the deal is as of today. When we talked, he was both exhausted and depressed.

Kurt-Best I know, the story is pretty much what it is. The guy did prepare a report that was not up to snuff- no arguement there. He did, however, make it very clear that there was a rot issue at a specific location and recommended a roofer look at it during the inspection period.

All- I am not a "don't breathe-you'll get sued" kind of guy. Just the opposite. I try to do the right thing and hope for the best. My whole point, when I got into this thread, is that (at least in my opinion) there is no one perfect method for detecting rot, that guarantees zero liability.

[kurt]

That makes a little more sense to me.

This is total projection, but my spidey sense tells me.....

1) When the complaint came, there was no damage control. I'm betting it was standard HI "I did everything right, go away now" response pattern. That's a sure loser.

2) Once there is relationship damage & a pissed off customer, SOB customer goes for blood. A below snuff report is powerful ammo; there's no way to back up off a crappy report system.

This reminds me of my single lawsuit. I got sued for deteriorated plaster in a 120 year old building. I talked all around the plaster, how it was all going to have to come out so the house could be rewired, plumbed, and heated, beware of lead paint, it's gonna be a freakshow mess, etc. Never once did I talk about the simple fact of the plaster being cracked & bulging. I thought that was readily apparent.

The judge even said "If you'd just said the plaster was horrible, I'd dismiss the case. Because you didn't, the complaint has merit." I learned a lot about report writing on that job. It's not enough to talk around a subject. One has to land on it w/both feet planted, and tell folks what to do.

If this guy said, rot-have a roofer look at it, I can see how that would go against him. Sounds like the classic vague referral.

It's a tricky business. I'm sweat a lot of this stuff all the time. You're right; no zero liability position anywhere. But, if one learns to manage those few times when there is damage, it can all be a lot less painful.

Hell, what if the guy said, "you know, you're right. There's rot. Let me pay for the repair". It wouldn't have been fair, but it would have probably let the steam out of the SOB, the whole thing would have cost about $1000, and it would have all gone away. I think Walter said something about every HI he's ever seen that sort of screwed the pooch insisted to the very end that he'd done nothing wrong. That's just not smart business; it makes people get riled up.

One has to be an accountant in addition to everything else; IOW, what's my cheapest out on this problem? Most HI's stick w/the "I did nothing wrong" approach and end up paying more than if they'd just sucked it up.

[Bain]

Kurt's absolutely right. Sometimes all a client wants to hear is, "I'm sorry." That's likely the best damage control in existence. It's been documented that doctors don't get sued because they're incompetent; it's typically because they're arrogant and adopt an "I didn't do anything wrong," stance. That pisses people off, and makes them want to inflict harm and exact revenge.

As for the classic vague referral . . . good point. Then again, I got sued last week by a seller who's claiming I scared buyers away from her house. And there's the conundrum. You have to be specific with a buyer so she knows what she's getting into. But you can't know anything at all about how badly a soffit is rotted without ripping into it.

Understate the condition, the buyer wants revenge.

Overstate the condition or imply it could potentially be totally yucko, the seller accuses you of supposition and wants revenge.

It's all pretty screwy when you actually wrap your mind around it.

[SonOfSwamp]

Originally posted by kurt

I think Walter said something about every HI he's ever seen that sort of screwed the pooch insisted to the very end that he'd done nothing wrong. That's just not smart business; it makes people get riled up.

Funny you should bring that up. I got an email this morning, regarding a situation/person you're somewhat familiar with -- the one that cost my customer $300K+.

Even though the HI lost his case in appellate court, he's now in full evasive-action mode (again), claiming he didn't do anything wrong.

This old case ain't done. I predict a serious Grudge Match.

The whole problem could've been cured with a sincere apology and some tens of thousands of dollars.

And, y'know, the case started with some roof rot...

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[ozofprev]

It's true in every walk of life. Remember the lady who sued McDonald's because of the hot coffee burning her private stuff? Her initial requests from McDonalds were quite modest and not legal - she just wanted some help with bills and to recommend they set a limit on beverage temperature. The huge legal team immediately descended and said, "Nuh-uh, we claim no responsibility whatsoever." They basically said, "We are big, you can go to hell." Had they said, "We are sorry, let's look at this," then it would have been a non-story.

How many times have you had someone do something asinine while driving, only to see them throw you the bird when you honk at them? All you're looking for is an acknowledgement from them that they realize they made a mistake. We all make mistakes. Too few of us take it with style.

[Les]

I am walking proof that mistakes don't have to destroy you! Some have really hurt and still sting years later, but I'm alive and have some dandy scars!

I've often thought that personality is a larger part of our work than most will admit. My personality is quite abrasive, arrogant, "know-it-all", gruff, animated, etc. When I say I'm wrong or made a mistake, my client seems to understand how valid that admission is and how difficult it was for me to admit it. I never have any hesitation admitting an error. I have done it thousands of times in my life.

I have done it in court, during an inspection, fishing, hunting, at my wedding, etc..

[chrisprickett]

Kurt (and others) makes a great point, and I suspect there was a bit of dismissiveness on the part of this inspector's keepers. I also suspect that that had something to do with the escalation by the PO'ed buyer.

My motto has always been "friends don't sue friends". So far it's worked- I haven't been sued as a contractor, inspector, Realtor, or private citizen.

I just hate to see a little guy get chewed up by the legal machine. In the end, the inspector pointed out the problem, albeit not perfectly. For his trouble, he's being glued and screwed.

[hausdok]

Originally posted by chrisprickett

I just hate to see a little guy get chewed up by the legal machine. In the end, the inspector pointed out the problem, albeit not perfectly. For his trouble, he's being glued and screwed.

That's where a board that has the power to attach assets screws people over. If he'd gone to court in a lawsuit, at least if he'd lost he'd be able to appeal the decision and it might have been overturned, as so many of them are.

Can he sue the BTR?

OT - OF!!!

M.

[chrisprickett]

Originally posted by hausdok

Can he sue the BTR?

OT - OF!!!

M.

I guess... he has appealed, but it's hard to fight a machine like that.

[RobFV]

Originally posted by SonOfSwamp

Now keep in mind: Outlander HIs should not relocate to Tennessee. There's nothing here but full-time banjo-picking, TV-preaching and snake-handling. The Banjo Boy from "Deliverance" will be your next-door neighbor. And on Sadie Hawkins day, hillbillies will descend from the high country and take any and all of your family members as spouses.

WJ

You forgot about moon-shinin'