KBHI Says Calling FPE Panels is Irresponsible

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Terence McCann

. . . This isn't the only problem though correct? There is also the problem of the breakers not tripping on an over amped condition and if I understand correctly, it's only to 220v double pole that has this problem oui?

No. That's absolutely not correct. Go back and read the stuff on Friedman's site. The two pole breakers fail more frequently, but they're not the only ones to fail.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by hausdok

Hi,

Yes, they are the same. There was also a Canadian version that sold, I believe, under the brand name Federal Electric, and looks and functions essentially the same.

OT - OF!!!

M.

And also Federal Pioneer and Federal No-Ark.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by SonOfSwamp

. . . Believe me when I tell you: The authors of this memo didn't engage in any "careful wording." They might've thought they were doing so, but they weren't. The memo reeks of uneducated morons. . . .

It certainly does. And that's yet another reason why I believe it didn't come from the realtors. They don't write that poorly.

This was conceived by a group of home inspectors who're think they're going to please the realtors.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[kurt]

I have no excuse........

Image Insert:

91.37 KB..

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by kurt

I have no excuse........

Yeah, but do you have problems with "delayed tripping" or does your "busbar" arc prematurely?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Bain]

The link below contains minutes from a KBHI board meeting in which the FPE panels were discussed. Check out the middle of the second page.

I typically would have more to say, but this wonderful forum is, after all, open for public consumption.

http://www.ohbc.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/131 ... 112007.pdf

[Les]

This whole issue is silly for 49 states and deadly serious for Kentucky! Who are these people and are you people in Ky paying them?

[msteger]

1. Does that mean that if a KY home inspector calls out an FPE panel as a safety hazard, that he risks having his licensed revoked? OR,

2. Do they just want the inspector to note it as a potential safety issue and require the inspector to recommend a licensed electrician make the final call?

Isn't number 2 what most of us do anyway?

Didn't know state inspector boards had this much power to tell inspectors in their state how they were supposed to run their business.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by msteger

1. Does that mean that if a KY home inspector calls out an FPE panel as a safety hazard, that he risks having his licensed revoked? OR,

2. Do they just want the inspector to note it as a potential safety issue and require the inspector to recommend a licensed electrician make the final call?

Isn't number 2 what most of us do anyway?

I don't know what most inspectors do. I make a strong and unqualified recommendation to replace the panel. I really can't understand doing anything less.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[hausdok]

Originally posted by kurt

I have no excuse........

Image Insert:

91.37 KB..

Holy F slot FPE Man! Where's your faithful sidekick Stablok?

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Scottpat]

Originally posted by Bain

The link below contains minutes from a KBHI board meeting in which the FPE panels were discussed. Check out the middle of the second page.

I typically would have more to say, but this wonderful forum is, after all, open for public consumption.

http://www.ohbc.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/131 ... 112007.pdf

Well that's a fun read! I can't believe that the "Board" has to approve all applications and that they spent time on folks who did not renew their license! Simply astounding that this board works like that. A person should get their license once the satisfy all of the listed requirements. It should be an automatic approval if everything is met. This could be and should be done by a clerical person.

[Paul N Frey]

As luck would have it, I was up at 3AM for my "old man" house walk and noticed 2 rooms with no power. Checked the main panel and no tripped breakers were noted. I reset the offender and lights on! Power on but as an added extra there was this beautiful blue color coming from the panel interior (think Haight Ashbury colors) for 15 seconds. Shut off breaker and back to bed after some checking. Next afternoon after work I removed tha panel cover and found the breaker connecting wire missing 8" of insulator - as in gone. Wire had melted thru. Electrician is changing out panel this week! Yes, I have been adament about replacing these panels forever but "do as I say, not as I do" prevailed. It was a FP stablok. At least it gave us the impetus to collect all needed house papers and pictures - now they are near the door!! In all the excitement I forgot pictures - they would have been perfect to send to Kentucky.

Merry Christmas to all from a not so politically correct Oregon Home Inspector.

[AHI in AR]

As I see it, there's also a problem leaving the ultimate decision in the hands of the electricians. Simply put, a lot of them aren't aware of the issue. Even more frightening is that many don't wish to learn. I've been called by more than one to tell me that they've "never seen a bad one." One even told me his shop had Stab-Lok equipment in it which he saw no reason to change. But here's the best: I wrote up a Stab-Lok panel on a home built about 1964. The buyer backed out; the seller hired an electrician himself to try to salvage the deal. The electrician calls me and says, in so many words, that I'm full of **it and don't know what I'm looking at. I asked him if he'd ever heard of the FPE problems; he said yes. I asked if he'd done any research himself; he said no. I tried to give him Friedman's website address dealing with it and he refused to write it down. I recommended that he Google it if writing down a URL was too much work. Again, he had no interest in this suggestion. At this point he called HI's "hysterical."

What he said after that was stunning in its stupidity.

I'm gonna turn the breakers off and then back on. If nothing bad happens, I'm gonna tell 'em it's OK.

I had to pause briefly while I attempted to understand how this made even a minuscule amount of sense. Of course, I couldn't. I knew further attempts at educating him were futile but I couldn't help myself. So I asked him how that would simulate an overcurrent or short condition due to which the breaker should reasonably be expected to trip. Not surprisingly, there was no answer. He simply restated his plan to turn them off then on again. I wasn't about to get into all the other issues with the panels as it would have wasted even more of my time.

Anyway, after that I revised my report language to (even) more strongly tell my clients that if they do even a little research they will most likely know more about FPE than any licensed electrician they contact.

[SonOfSwamp]

Originally posted by Bain

Originally posted by Scottpat

Originally posted by Bain

The link below contains minutes from a KBHI board meeting in which the FPE panels were discussed. Check out the middle of the second page.

I typically would have more to say, but this wonderful forum is, after all, open for public consumption.

http://www.ohbc.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/131 ... 112007.pdf

Well that's a fun read! I can't believe that the "Board" has to approve all applications and that they spent time on folks who did not renew their license! Simply astounding that this board works like that. A person should get their license once the satisfy all of the listed requirements. It should be an automatic approval if everything is met. This could be and should be done by a clerical person.

Yep.

Where's their source for the statement that calling out an FPE panel is beyond the scope of HI work?

I've told dozens of people to rip these things out. If TN told me I couldn't recommend rip-outs, I'd still tell people to rip 'em out.

I mean, really, what are they gonna do to me? Toss me out of the HI business? Oh, please, don't throw me in that briar patch.

WJid="blue">

[sepefrio]

Just curious as I'm not sure how these boards really work, but is it possible to sue them? I know thats a lot of money, just asking.

[hausdok]

Hi All,

I'm disappointed to learn that the former President of NAHI, Ralph Wirth, is on that board and mixed up in this, but that still doesn't change my opinion. Since he's the honcho on that board he is now the head pinhead as far as I'm concerned.

I say again, just shine a light on it. It was done behind closed doors. They never asked for the input of the inspectors in the state, before they created this oh-so-convenient-for-the-sellers-and reel-tours-rule. It's goofy and it's a disservice to the consumer. They can paint it any way they want and I'll still believe that it was done to plander to special interests.

Get it out in the open so their little "arrangements" are revealed and see what happens. The North Carolina boys and girls have already shown you what to do. Now do it better than they did.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Brandon Chew]

Originally posted by SonOfSwamp

Now, with apologies to the author of the words below, the text is a glaring example of what happens when people who don't write carefully shoot themselves in the feet, shins, thighs and balls...

"I point this out for the benefit of those who want to take the fight to the KBHI. I suggest you acknowledge that all FPE stuff is not bad but point out that there are problems associated with specific components from that manufacturer (Stab-Lok). IMO it will make your argument more compelling and credible.

No, no, no. The above would destroy an HI's credibility. The words "all FPE stuff is not bad" actually mean that everything that FPE ever made is good. The correct wording would have been something like, "not all FPE stuff is known to be defective." That means that some FPE might just be bad. It's a critical distinction, and it requires critical thinking.

No apology is necessary. As soon as I read the part you highlighted in red, I cringed, even before I got to your explanation. That was sloppy writing.

I'll have a side of crow to go along with that slice of humble pie.

[SonOfSwamp]

Originally posted by sepefrio

Just curious as I'm not sure how these boards really work, but is it possible to sue them? I know thats a lot of money, just asking.

I don't know Jack about KY law, but you can bet that if some poor soul gets badly injured (burned) by an FPE meltdown, there will be hell to pay.

The way I understand it -- and don't go by me -- is that govt drones are pretty much safe from lawsuits, until and unless they cause harm via an arbitrary and capricious act, which is exactly what the KY edict is.

Definition of arbitrary: 1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: an arbitrary decision.

Definition of capricious: 1. subject to, led by, or indicative of caprice or whim; erratic.

These particular pinheads need to be scorned and ridiculed at the very least. Some media-savvy KY HI (if there is such a creature) ought to be getting in touch with print and broadcast media tomorrow.

Or, if one really wants to drop the hammer on the KY "board:" Just hand the edict out to the customers. Explain the situation. There will be a ripple effect.

WJid="blue">

[Scottpat]

A little more information that was published on a private board, as the person is a licensed KY inspector and does not want to get on the bad side of those that control his/her license:

A relocation inspection company approached the Kentucky Board of Home Inspectors some time back (early this year?) seeking approval of their ERC form which had a question on it about whether or not the electrical panel was an FPE.

Discussion among the KBHI board members ensued and they decided to ask the state electrical advisory committe. Who asked or brought it up as an issue. I don't know.

The state electrical board, in the person of Ken Leathers, Chief Electrical Inspector, apparently got ahold of the "release concerning FPB panels from US Consumer Product Safety Commission, March 3, 1983 (Release *83-008). " Partial meeting minutes that started the ball rolling :

ELECTRICAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

Amended Minutes from April 17, 2007 (as approved by the OHBC Board on May 31, 2007)

Office of Housing, Buildings & Construction

Electrical Section

101 Sea Hero Road, Suite 100

Frankfort KY 40601

MEMBERS PRESENT

Bobby Hamilton, Chair

Michael T. Leake

Garry Sebastian

Tim Parsons

Robert Matthews

Sal Santoro

Raymond Cornelison

Gary Osborne

Michael Billow

Federal Pacific Electric Company stab-lok breakers memorandum: Home Inspectors telling homeowners that FPE panels should be replaced due to fire hazard.

Mr. Ken Leathers received a release concerning FPB panels from US Consumer Product Safety Commission, March 3, 1983 (Release *83-008).

Several members stated that there was no documentation present that alluded to the fact that the panel was a fire hazard yet the Committee itself takes no liability in stating that the panel is a safe panel.

First motion made to have Ken Leathers with aid of Terry Slade draft letter stating Committee’s statement about breaker panel boxes: Robert Matthews

Second motion made to accept: Tim Parsons

Motion carried.

Things kinda went from there, but I don't have all the details of how it got to where it is now

[Brian G]

Originally posted by sepefrio

Just curious as I'm not sure how these boards really work, but is it possible to sue them? I know thats a lot of money, just asking.

It's generally true that you cannot sue the individual who works for a government entity, but you usually can sue the entity. Activists have a long history of doing just that. If you wanted to attack that way: tell everyone how bad FPE is, make sure they know you're doing it, hope they take action against you, then sue and drag them into open court where you can expose them. All of which would be expensive, but probably effective.

Brian G.

Justice Ain't Cheap [8]

[carle3]

I have Doug Hansen's article linked to my canned statement for FPE panels. It automaticaly gets printed with my report and handed to my client. I also include it as an attachment to any party that I emailed a copy of the report to. I have not had one call since I have started using this article.

[allspec33351]

I understand KBHI is now discussing polybutylene piping as not all polybutylene piping will leak.

CCD

[hausdok]

Hi,

Unbolted and unflashed deck ledgers too because not all unbolted and unflashed deck ledgers separate and allow decks to collapse. []

OT - OF!!!

M.

[SonOfSwamp]

Originally posted by msteger

2. Do they just want the inspector to note it as a potential safety issue and require the inspector to recommend a licensed electrician make the final call?

Isn't number 2 what most of us do anyway?

Call me crotchety, but I'm not so sure that calling something in an FPE panel a "potential safety issue" stands up to logic. Where's the "potential?" If there's a visible problem -- and/or documentation of past problems with arcing/burning FPE panels, there's a safety issue, plain and simple.

I don't know what most HIs do, but once I read the Hansen article, I figured I had sure-shot expert opinion that was strong enough to make me recommend removing and replacing FPE panels.

Hansen's a published, peer-reviewed expert; his opinions have considerable weight. I'd much rather rely on Hansen's opinion than the opinion of a local-yokel electrician or some pinhead(s) on the KY HI board.

I have always preferred making a straight-up recommendation rather than referring customers to a "licensed qualified" hairdresser, which inevitably turns out to be a lackey who turns out to be the reeltor's handyman.

In the immortal words of Mark Cramer, "If you know the answer, give the answer."

But that's just me,

WJid="blue">

[hausdok]

FWIW,

I heard from Douglas about this the other night. He's going to update his FPE paper to included the court developments and research that have been done since he first wrote it.

Once that's done, I think it will be all a home inspector needs to shine a light on the motives of the pinheads.

OT - OF!!!

M.