Roof flashing question

[hausdok]

Originally posted by SonOfSwamp

So, in a way, it's good crap. Unless you're the homeowner.

WJ

Yes, from an expert witness's point of view, which is what you do these days, I can imagine that it would be good crap.

Kurt makes a good point about the NRCA. When I first moved out here to Washington State I didn't find any drip edge flashings on the very first home that I inspected. I was like, "What the hell is going on; what kind of ijit installs a roof this way?" I wrote it up and the reeltor started griping, "I've been in this business X number of years and no home inspector has ever written this up; I don't think your right about this." I told her that I was building houses before she was out of high school, so I did know what I was talking about and she backed off.

Then I found the same thing on the next house, and the next, and the next. After a while, after catching constant flak about it and being the sort that likes to back up my observations, I got on the phone and called the NRCA and asked to speak to one of their subject matter experts. A gentleman came on the phone with me and I told him what I'd been finding. As best I can remember, he said something like, "What, isn't Washington State supposed to have a lot of rain?" "Yeah," I answered, "We do get a fair amount of rain out here, but the roofers apparently don't think a drip edge flashing is necessary." His response - "That's the dumbest thing that I've ever heard. A climate like your's is exactly why drip edge flashings should be used; otherwise, you're going to end up with some roofs rotting." "Could you send me something to document NRCA's position on this?" I asked. "Sure," he said, "I can do better than that; I'll give you ARMA's (Asphalt Roofing Manufacturing Association) as well. Give me your fax number."

To this day, when a roofer starts arguing with me about drip edge flashings, I shoot him those faxed pages with the official NRCA letterhead on them. It kind of shuts them down in a New York minute.

If NRCA, with all of their experience, blesses this, than I'll have to say, "Well, okay; I don't like it, I think it's a cheesy way of doing things, and I certainly wouldn't do it on my own home, and I'd say that to any of my friends and relative, but I guess it's "acceptable."

By the way Professional Roofing magazine is free subscription. Everyone in this business should be subscribed to it. To sign up, click here.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[msteger]

Originally posted by AHI in AR

Originally posted by Phillip

Here is another

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This pic illustrates exactly why there are so many problems with EIFS if the details are done incorrectly. That type of flashing is common here for all wall cladding types; maybe it isn't common in other regions. Done properly, it's fine. (For a typical composition shingle, anyway.) It can't be seen easily in the photo, but there is a hemmed back edge under the shingles which keeps water from running under the shingles. But if it does not terminate OUTSIDE the wall cladding, be it brick, vinyl, wood, or stucco-like material of whatever type, you are going to have big problems since you are literally funneling water into the wall cavity. The unfortunate thing is that it usually does not cause enough damage to be discovered until well after the new-home warranty is up.

Where's the kickout flashing?

[AHI in AR]

Originally posted by msteger

Originally posted by AHI in AR

Originally posted by Phillip

Here is another

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This pic illustrates exactly why there are so many problems with EIFS if the details are done incorrectly. That type of flashing is common here for all wall cladding types; maybe it isn't common in other regions. Done properly, it's fine. (For a typical composition shingle, anyway.) It can't be seen easily in the photo, but there is a hemmed back edge under the shingles which keeps water from running under the shingles. But if it does not terminate OUTSIDE the wall cladding, be it brick, vinyl, wood, or stucco-like material of whatever type, you are going to have big problems since you are literally funneling water into the wall cavity. The unfortunate thing is that it usually does not cause enough damage to be discovered until well after the new-home warranty is up.

Where's the kickout flashing?

The lack of a kickout flashing is exactly what I was getting at when I said it terminated improperly inside the wall cavity and was funneling water inside the wall!

[AHI in AR]

Originally posted by kurt

I'm voting crap.

This is made up @ the moment crap, adopted by unknowledgeable tradesman, and (apparently) endorsed by HI's that don't know any better.

I second Kibbels comment; can anyone come up w/any recognition of this by any reputable source? Of course you can't, because it doesn't exist outside of the crappy roofers imagination, and the HI's that don't know any better.

And, there's HI's (right in this thread!) arguing that this is somehow better than step flashing because it allows one to install a second roof on the first easier and w/less hassle(?) Does anyone consider 2nd roof layers to also be better?

Anyone that thinks this is good stuff needs to go to the NRCA site & read up a bit.

Well, it appears I've been told I have my head up my rear! Had to happen sooner or later, I guess...

I'll give everyone else a chance to pile on if desired. But first, I want the chance to make my case. First, the disclaimers: (1) I was not responding to the original post that started this thread. I don't know what the term "J" flashing refers to so I'm not endorsing it or commenting on it in any way. (2) I DO NOT recommend one-piece flashing with brick veneer construction. I stick with the step flashing and counter flashing method there. (3) The comments I posted earlier refer to the one-piece type of flashing in the pic originally posted by Philip which I used in my post stating that the flashing was OK if done properly. (4) Lastly, I have no financial interest in any firm that makes or sells flashing of any sort. I do not own, nor have I ever owned, any roofing firm.

What I would like to know is how many of you are condemning the one-piece flashing design due to actual experiences where it has failed? How many of you are suspicious just because it's not something you are familiar with? I can tell you that in my area it has been in widespread use for over 30 years. During my 9 years of inspections I've seen a ton of it used. Do you know how many failures I've seen due to water running over the lip? EXACTLY ZERO. (That seems to be the big fear/objection.) I've seen a whole bunch of improper terminations missing a kickout at the bottom. Guess what? I have seen the exact same thing as often with step flashing. I have seen leaks due to nailing in improper places; I've seen that in step flashing also. However, I've never seen 1 pc. flashing overlapped too short to save material. I certainly have seen that with step flashing. And I've never seen it overlapped incorrectly with the bottom piece over the top one at joints as I have with step flashing.

As for my comments about reroofing over this product, I have a couple of necessary points to make. I never said that this product is:

better than step flashing because it allows one to install a second roof on the first easier and w/less hassle(?)

Easier and less hassle has nothing to do with it. The last thing I care about is how easy a roofer's job is. I care about leaks. The point I was trying to make was that based on my experience it maintains a more consistently reliable water tight joint after a reroof. I only say that because I've seen fewer problems with leaks after a recover which keeps this flashing in use . A proper step flashing design would still be a wonderful system if the roofers took the time to do their job right. The ugly fact is that a lot of them don't, and leaks result. Based on my experience, a one piece design is more resistant to problems due to a lazy or ill-trained roofer.

And, no, I don't think that a 2nd layer of roofing is better that a tearoff and reroof. I never said or even hinted at that. In fact, I referred to the recover as a "cheapo" reroof! However, it IS allowed, (at least in most places) it IS done, and I have seen more than a few botched step flashing jobs where the roofer simply slathers tar all over anything near the roof-to-wall joint rather than wrestle with the step flashing. They simply put down the new roof right over it, bedded down in tar. Guaranteed to leak after the warranty is up -- if not before.

For the record, it's not "made up at the moment crap" as it was referred to. It is sold by all the lumber yards locally as well as the roofing supply houses. Maybe not in your neck of the woods, but it is here. Some of the supply houses selling it are owned by roofing manufacturers. Now, before you flame me and say "That doesn't make it right" I will stop you short and say that I agree. I'm merely pointing out that it isn't some homemade junk created on site by a roofer, or existing only in his imagination. Both of those were alleged.

And it's not reasonable to imply that this product in any way is more likely to allow water to freeze on a roof than step flashing. If anything the opposite would seem to be true since it gets water off the roof more quickly.

I suspect that some of you aren't sure how this works since it may not be used in your area. It's simple, and it is EXACTLY the same principle found in metal flashings used in open valleys such as on wood or tile roofs. That's right, the type that has been used for centuries. Valleys take a whole lot more water that a wall to roof joint does. I can't follow the logic in asserting that the same design principles will work in a valley but not against a wall where there is far less water. You have a raised lip which keeps the water from running out under the shingles and gravity does the rest until it dumps out over the roof edge.

I did a quick Google search and came up with this. It's not from a shingle manufacturer; their online installation details all seemed to be commercial stuff. It's from the Copper Development Association. I doubt that they'd have an interest in promoting a poor system; they aren't even selling anything. Look at illustration "D" http://www.copper.org/applications/arch ... rmers.html

If nothing else, this proves that the product is commercially available as well as endorsed by an organization that knows a little bit about flashing.

I also find it curious that you would bless this basic type of flashing under a tile roof but not shingles. The way it works is identical as far as water control, I.E. a raised edge. Certainly there isn't more water getting to the flashing with a composition roof than a tile roof. Where's the problem?

So to recap, I haven't seen any problems resulting from the use of this product per se. It's all been improper installation. And since the alternative step flashing is certainly not immune to improper installation which produces leaks, I have a real hard time condemning this product. Quite simply, if I had seen problems from it, I would not hesitate for one second to argue against its use. As I said to start this post, I firmly believe in step flashing in some applications. But in my opinion, it isn't right to call a product crap if you can't point to any failures due to it. Maybe some of you guys can, but despite all of it I've seen, I can't. If you've got photos showing damage from water running over the lip, please post them. I'll go out on a short limb and say that most water leaks from this type of flashing are due to improper installation, not the inherent design of the product. The same is true of step flashing.

Frankly, I never would have posted the original comments if I had envisioned this kind of response. I would just have chalked it up to regional differences. In short, it would not have been an issue I felt strongly about. But since my abilities and judgment have been questioned (as well as the location of my head) I feel compelled to waste some more time with this. If any of you can post pics showing problems from this type of flashing, I'd love to see them. Really. I'm not kidding.

I'd also point out that in general, I'm a pretty staunch traditionalist when it comes to building materials. I never jump on a new product which is touted as better simply because it's new. Most often they're not. In fact, I've been called a dinosaur due to my insistence that a lot of old ways are better. But I do realize that materials and methods change and occasionally a new product comes out that offers some benefits. After all, we don't still live in log cabins with oilcloth windows do we?

[kurt]

OK.

Around here, it's made up at the moment crap, and doesn't display any of the installation detail noted @ the copper flashing site you linked to.

It is noteworthy that the flashing detail @ the copper site is different than that described in the original photo.

The differences in tile roof flashing profiles is also distinctly different, as are valley flashing details. Water sheeting down a sidwall & onto shingles is different than water running down a valley.

If it's on a shingle roof, I still think it's crap.

[hausdok]

Originally posted by AHI in AR

Well, it appears I've been told I have my head up my rear! Had to happen sooner or later, I guess...

Well no, that's not true, unless you're saying that you'd install a roof with this kind of flashing. Read my post again, I was referring to to those who install these.

For the record, I don't care whether it won't leak; I don't believe for a second that this method is equal to properly done step flashings. It looks to me like there's no way to nail the wall edge of those shingles without penetrating that "J" flashing, so they're essentially left un-secured for that last few inches. That alone doesn't comply with manufacturers' fastening instructions. Properly installed step flashings hold that outer edge of the shingles firmly against the roof deck.

I don't agree with the idea that we have to develop simpler and easier methods to build homes because those in the labor pool don't have the same training and background as those in the construction business used to have. We're losing critical skills and the proper skills aren't being passed on because people are accepting of shortcuts.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[AHI in AR]

Originally posted by hausdok

For the record, I don't care whether it won't leak

Isn't that the purpose of a roof?

I don't believe for a second that this method is equal to properly done step flashings. It looks to me like there's no way to nail the wall edge of those shingles without penetrating that "J" flashing, so they're essentially left un-secured for that last few inches. That alone doesn't comply with manufacturers' fastening instructions. Properly installed step flashings hold that outer edge of the shingles firmly against the roof deck.

I agree that the one piece flashing does not restrain the edge of the shingles. But considering that they are protected from the wind by the vertical wall above them, it's doubtful that you will experience a problem. I've never seen one. Has anyone else seen problems such as missing shingle ends where this type of flashing is used? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I just want to know if I haven't seen what others have.

I don't agree with the idea that we have to develop simpler and easier methods to build homes because those in the labor pool don't have the same training and background as those in the construction business used to have. We're losing critical skills and the proper skills aren't being passed on because people are accepting of shortcuts.

I agree with you that the labor pool is lacking in skills. 25 years of experience as a custom builder pretty well burned me out dealing with subcontractors. The problem as I see it is that the younger guys are not only largely lacking in skills, they are sorely lacking in motivation. I can show you laborers pushing hard against 40 who are still doing what they started doing at age 16 or so. So long as they make enough money to last until Friday, they think they're doing OK. And then there's the widespread substance abuse problems...

Around here, at least, the idea of trade schools is not pushed for those kids who clearly aren't college material. I think that's a mistake; there's good money to be made if you have talents and are willing to forget the idea of working in an office wearing a suit. We need to eliminate the mindset that you are a failure without a college degree. Look at the rates of students in remedial classes in public colleges and tell me that they all belong there. Not convinced? Check out the percentage of students who enroll and actually make it all the way through college. Resources are being wasted. The days seem to be long gone where a kid who wasn't college material would graduate high school (or not) and seek a job as an apprentice hoping to eventually learn enough to own his own company. Quality is suffering as a result. I suspect that's the real cause. It's not any "acceptance" of substandard skills, it's being forced upon us.

[hausdok]

Originally posted by AHI in AR

Originally posted by hausdok

For the record, I don't care whether it won't leak

Isn't that the purpose of a roof?

I was referring of course to the fact that I don't particularly care if it (this flashing method) won't leak, because I don't consider it to be a legitimate method of flashing a roof. If I ever encounter it, I'll write it up - unless, of course, you can show me something from NRCA or ARMA endorsing it. Oh yeah, then there's that devilish little detail of being required to secure that shingle near the end - which is required by the manufacturer - how do you expect a roofer to accomplish that using this method?

It's obvious we aren't going to agree on this one so we might as well agree to disagree.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Phillip]

The rake flashing is what I see the most around here. It does keep the water out if it is installed properly. Step flashing is like drip edge. Until the AHJ make the builder install it, it not going to be installed.

The ends of the shingles finish the same way at rake flashing as the shingles ends in valley flashing unless you put nails into the valley flashing at the places you are at.

[Brandon Chew]

Good debate guys. For me, this issue is clear cut.

2003 IRC "§R905.2.8.4 Sidewall flashing. Flashing against a vertical sidewall shall be by the step-flashing method."

My state building code is based on the IRC. Both codes are specific and mandate step-flashing. No prescriptive allowance is made for an alternative. You could go to an engineered design and get approval based upon equivalency, but why bother? Cut and pre-bent step flashing can be purchased at your local big orange box for about 30 cents per course and it is easy to install.

The "but this is how we've always done it around here and I haven't seen any problems with it" argument holds no water with me. Not when I can point to the building code, the NRCA manual, and various shingle manufacturer installation instructions that specify step-flashing, and only step-flashing.

Being a person who tries to remain open-minded about new ways of doing things, for three straight days I've read this thread and then tried Google searches to find something, anything, that recognizes this J-flashing as an approved method for asphalt shingle roofs. I've come up empty. If this method was in widespread use in certain areas of the country for 30 or so years (I don't doubt the people who have said so), AND IT WAS APPROVED as a viable alternative to the step flashing method, I should be able to find something on it, yes? The NRCA or ASMA would recognize this method, even if the building codes haven't yet caught up to it, yes? Just because some copper guys make a flashing in that profile and sell it, just means there is a perceived market for it, not that it is approved for use (slinky plumbing pipes are another example that fits here).

I've got plenty of stuff, in writing, that says step-flashing is the only approved method. Can anyone provide a written source showing this J-flashing method is approved? Till then, I write it up as wrong.

[Phillip]

I write it up all the time as being wrong, because of the code and shingle manufacturer's installation instructions. That does not means that it gets changed out. It works but it is not what's supposed to be there.

[AHI in AR]

OK, you guys won me over. After spending a little time looking at a few websites for shingle manufacturers, I can't find one where they show one piece rake flashing. Step flashing seems to be the preferred method. I still have a hard time recommending that a buyer change out a functional system which shows no signs of leakage, or damaged shingles from lack of nailing at the few inches against the vertical wall. So what I've decided to do is add a comment to my reports that recommends changing to step flashing when possible at the next re-roof with the explanation that says it's the method the Mfr. recommends.

I'll admit that I had never looked up specific shingle installation instructions. I work in about 8 cities regularly, each with their own separate code enforcement guys, and the one piece flashing is by far the predominant method in all of them. It has been for a long time. With that many AHJ's allowing it, it never occurred to me that it might not be a method allowed by the manufacturers.

As a practical matter, I don't regularly call items out like this as being code issues on new homes if I have no evidence of problems which have resulted, or can result from the issue. Especially since around here, at least, each flea-bitten town can adopt or not adopt any provision of any version of any code they want. Even then, they give wide latitude to the individual enforcement guy in the field. I save the C word for the safety or glaring functional issues where I can justify a fight. Electrical items, deck issues, etc. Or even items such as the toilet I found in a brand new home whose center line that was all of 10 inches off one side wall. The AHJ had already issued a CO. The buyer asked me what he'd have to do. I suggested that he and his wife could adopt a sidesaddle method of seating. Alternately, he could use the TP holder as a handy armrest and sit down facing forward, albeit with his left, uhhh, cheek planted hard against the wall. Imagine my surprise when he didn't seem too receptive to either of those ideas.

Anyway, it appears that despite my best efforts, I learned something on this forum. Dang...I hate it when that happens. [:-graduat

[Phillip]

Here are some photos of rake flashing seen from the attic in a 37 year old house.

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[Phillip]

WJ

The galvanized is on both sides.

Yes it has leaked. The siding is installed wrong, it is in contact with the shingles and there is no kick out at the bottom of the flashing.

One of the other items wrong here that the felt that is suppose to be turn up at the wall before the flashing is install is not there. The roof was replaced 2 years ago and of course the roofer said everything is OK, so did the AHJ.

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[SonOfSwamp]

Originally posted by Phillip

WJ

The galvanized is on both sides.

OK. I'm saying it should've been painted on both sides. But after 30+ years, it hasn't rusted, so there's no good reason to paint it now. id="blue">

Yes it has leaked. The siding is installed wrong, it is in contact with the shingles and there is no kick out at the bottom of the flashing.

One of the other items wrong here that the felt that is suppose to be turn up at the wall before the flashing is install is not there. The roof was replaced 2 years ago and of course the roofer said everything is OK, so did the AHJ.

Typical.

WJ

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[waldenbuilder]

Step Flashing has a splice every six inches. J Flashing has a splice every nine feet. Step Flashin and J Flashing both need a kick out. I have seen the Step Flashing LEAK more often than the J Flashing. I suppose that J Flashing is only supposed to work on the Expensive Tile Roofs. That is what I want on my roof, a minimum wage roofer installing Step Flashing with 18 times as many splices.

[hausdok]

Originally posted by waldenbuilder

Step Flashing has a splice every six inches. J Flashing has a splice every nine feet. Step Flashin and J Flashing both need a kick out. I have seen the Step Flashing LEAK more often than the J Flashing. I suppose that J Flashing is only supposed to work on the Expensive Tile Roofs. That is what I want on my roof, a minimum wage roofer installing Step Flashing with 18 times as many splices.

Then I'd say that the state of the roofing industry is in pretty sorry shape in your area because I've never seen properly installed step flashings leak in the 56 years I've been on this rock.

Where did you ever get the idea that there's a "splice" every 6 inches?

OT - OF!!!

M.

[bitcsi]

Wisconsin Code says to do per manufacturer's instructions and I've never seen any shingle or other roofing manufacturer say anything but stepped flashing. Call your inspector and have him write it up as a Code violation and take it with you to negotiate a new price. It looks like trouble waiting to happen. If your banker doesn't understand then you've just learned what I've known for years, all the bank cares about is closing the loan, they don't make the payments or have to take care of the place... from the photos shown J flashing a roof - wall intersection is key-wrap!

[ejager]

By the way Professional Roofing magazine is free subscription. Everyone in this business should be subscribed to it. To sign up, click here.

Subscription to the magazine is not free, but free registration allows users access to web content.

Have to agree with you Mike, just because it is common practice doesn't make it right. I like to tell clients, "If I was having a house built I would expect to see best practice, both in materials and workmanship."

It might not rain that much up here, but to say it never rains that much up here is just tempting fate.

[hausdok]

By the way Professional Roofing magazine is free subscription. Everyone in this business should be subscribed to it. To sign up, click here.

Subscription to the magazine is not free, but free registration allows users access to web content.

Uh oh,

Hope they won't be invoicing me for all those years they've been sending it to me for free.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike