Roof flashing question

[wonder88]

I just purchased a new home from David Weekley in Houston.

My inspector told me that the the roof flashing is J-Flashing, which is not qualified now. The code asks the builder to use Step-Flashing instead of J-Flashing in Texas.

Our new home is supposed to close on next Friday. We haven't talked to the builder about this flashing problem yet. But I heard from the inspector that it is a little difficult for the buidler to change it. So what should I do? Ask the builder to delay the closing date and change the roof flashing from J-Flahsing to Step-Flashing? Or close the home first, and then ask the builder to change? I am afraid the builder isn't willing to change it because the home is almost done.

Thank you for any advices.

[carle3]

Whom ever has the money has the power. Once you turn the money over to the builder you will lose all leverage. If this is an issue you are willing to take to the matt and lose the home over then I would at the very least require money in escrow till the matter is resolved to your liking.

Yes, the replacement of the flashing once all the coverings are done will require removal or modification of those materials. Once something has been taken apart it never goes back together the same way again.

[ghentjr]

Originally posted by wonder88

My inspector told me that the the roof flashing is J-Flashing, which is not qualified now. The code asks the builder to use Step-Flashing instead of J-Flashing in Texas.

You have your own answer. If it is not code have the builder make it code.

[wonder88]

I feel a little curious. The inspector told me it is a code requirement. But he also said there are still a lot of new homes use the J-Flashing. And when he inspected such kind of home, he always wrote that in the report.

I don't know if I should take serious on this with the builder or not.

Originally posted by ghentjr

Originally posted by wonder88

My inspector told me that the the roof flashing is J-Flashing, which is not qualified now. The code asks the builder to use Step-Flashing instead of J-Flashing in Texas.

You have your own answer. If it is not code have the builder make it code.

[hausdok]

Hi,

This "J" flashing sounds like a local term that I've never heard before. When you say "J flashing" are you referring to a single continuous bent piece of metal along an entire raked roof/wall intersection, or are you referring to the "J" channel along the bottom edge of the vinyl siding. Someone want to clarify this for me?

If it's a J-channel, that has nothing to do with the roof anyway, and there're supposed to be step flashings behind it. However, if the bottom of the vinyl J-channel has been installed too close to the rake, you wouldn't necessarily be able to see those flashings without prying up the bottom edge of the siding.

The correct procedure for flashing shingles at a roof/wall intersection has only been around for about 400 or 500 years, so I doubt that any builder or roofer who is reasonably competent would attempt to flash a wall any other way. If the roofer or builder is trying to do it another way, it's time to put the car and reverse and back away from that place as fast as you can, because if he can't get a simple thing like flashing right, there could be a whole lot more wrong with the house than just the flashings.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Chad Fabry]

I'm seeing this more and more.

A single flashing bent into an ell shape with a half inch return. The shingles go over the top of this and it creates a slight lump in the roof. Presumably the water runs down the wall below the shingles onto the flashing; the little return keeps it on the flashing. Then it stays under the shingles allllll the way to the bottom where it leaks out from beneath the shingles. From there it is directly funneled behind the bad detail of the EIFS where it stays for all eternity or until the wall becomes a primordial soup.

[hausdok]

It sounds like some idiot's homemade version of a roof/wall flashing for a tile roof.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Phillip]

The metal flashing Chad is talking about is rake flashing. That what it is called in my area. The roofers are using it instead of step flashing. As long as the AHJ lets them get away with it the roofers are going to use it. It does not take as long to install rake flashing asi t would the step flashing.

[Chad Fabry]

The metal flashing Chad is talking about is rake flashing.

Not at all what I'm talking about.

The roofer bends a j shaped flashing for the roof to wall intersection. The wall dimension is about 6 inches high, the part that goes on the roof is about 4 inches across and then there's a lip kicked up and hemmed that's about 3/8 to 1/2 tall. They roof right over the whole thing and voila, it's flashed.

[hausdok]

Sounds dumber than a screen door on a submarine.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Chad Fabry]

It sounds like some idiot's homemade version of a roof/wall flashing for a tile roof.

It's just like that.

Idiot is the key word here.

[homnspector]

Anybody got any pictures or diagrams? I am having a little trouble following this. It sounds like what you are talking about is what we call pan flashing here, used on the sidewalls on tile roofs. Doesn't the rake refer to the sloped edge of the roof, from ridge to eave, rather than the sloped edge abutting a wall?

[hausdok]

Hi,

Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to and what Chad has described; I'm just puzzled as to whether this is what wonder88 is talking about and wondering why anyone would use it on anything other than a tile or metal roof.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[homnspector]

"wondering why anyone would use it on anything other than a tile or metal roof"

I agree, they have completely different functions. Step flashing will keep the water from running under the shingles. Pan flashing channels water away that is allowed to run under the tile (or in this case the shingles).

I have seen "L" metal used on sidewalls, heavily coated with roof cement to try to prevent leaks but don't think I have seen what Chad is referring to on a composition shingle roof.

[Phillip]

Hi,

Here is a photo that has rake flashing and J channel for the vinyl siding.

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[Phillip]

Here is another

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[Phillip]

Originally posted by SonOfSwamp

Originally posted by Phillip

Hi,

Here is a photo that has rake flashing and J channel for the vinyl siding.

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Sheesh! That's neither stepped nor waterproof at the top. Water will get behind -- and over -- that sorry-ass little piece of plastic.

WJid="blue">

Hey Walter,

At least that has a little kick-out on the bottom.

Most of the time the turn up part ends behind the siding.

Go look at the details for the roof to wall flashing at VSI.

At VSI they show step flashing. here hey are using rake flashing which is 10 ft long. You can see more detail on how the flashing is made on the other photos

[AHI in AR]

Originally posted by Phillip

Here is another

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This pic illustrates exactly why there are so many problems with EIFS if the details are done incorrectly. That type of flashing is common here for all wall cladding types; maybe it isn't common in other regions. Done properly, it's fine. (For a typical composition shingle, anyway.) It can't be seen easily in the photo, but there is a hemmed back edge under the shingles which keeps water from running under the shingles. But if it does not terminate OUTSIDE the wall cladding, be it brick, vinyl, wood, or stucco-like material of whatever type, you are going to have big problems since you are literally funneling water into the wall cavity. The unfortunate thing is that it usually does not cause enough damage to be discovered until well after the new-home warranty is up.

[hausdok]

I still think it's crap, hemmed edge or not.

In my opinion none of us should be saying that it's fine "when done properly" because this isn't properly installed flashing, regardless.

There's a reason that step flashings work so well - the amount of actual flashings that extend beneath the roof surface at each step is small and then water is directed on top of the roof material before enough can accumulate to get past the flashings. With what you've got there, a larger amount of water can flow down that channel under the shingles. Upturned lip or not, when more water runs into that channel than can squeeze out the bottom of that channel, it's going to build up pressure near the bottom of the roof and overflow that lip onto the roof deck. God help you if the end of that mess freezes.

It's another example of builders not paying attention to what subs are doing. The subs think up creative little ways to cut corners and save a few bucks here and there - leave out drip edge flashings, use this crap instead of real flashings, leave out starter and valley courses, etc., and then the builder says, "It's done to code," because he either never learned to do it right and doesn't know any better, or he's willing to accept it because he knows it will last long enough for his warranty to expire.

I'm sorry if I sound fired up, but I just returned from an upscale development where I found half of a 9-year old architectural-grade comp roof ruined because some sh*t-for-brains roofer didn't check the pressure settings on his roofing guns. As I'm up on the roof shaking my head at how the shingles have delaminated and are probably defective, I checked the nailing pattern and found that the idiots had put most nails either 3/4 of the way through the shingle or at an angle. A moderate wind creating a low pressure area over the ridge, combined with lousy nailing, and the cover has literally pulled itself off the deck and is held on by a fraction of it's nails. And, despite the fact that these shingles, which are warranted for at least 25 years, are defective, the homeowner, who bought the house new, isn't going to be able to get anything from the roofing manufacturer, because the cover is installed incorrectly and the warranty is void. Even if the owner could get the manufacturer to ante up something, it'd be pro-rated and would cover only the cost of the material. That's a far cry from a $15,000 roof.

The topping on the cake though was when I looked around me for 360° and noticed similar damage on every single house in that 9-year old development. If I had my druthers, the so-called roofer who's crew put these covers on would be hauled off and jailed without a trial, and then held indefinitely underground in a lightless grotto and would be fed nothing but hard tack and water passed to him through a tube. Grrrrr. [:-gnasher

Please, do not give crap like this a by - write it up, regardless of whether it's commonplace in your area. Hell, there's drip edge flashing on maybe 1 out of every 1,000 houses I see in my region. Most roofers here have never even seen it and don't know how to install it. That doesn't stop me from writing it up when it's missing. When something is done half-assed, we need to say that it's done half-assed. If we don't, the half-assed stuff takes on a life of its own and becomes the norm for the area.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[AHI in AR]

Whoa, there, Mike!

You obviously get a lot more rain there than we do here. This type of flashing has worked reliably for decades in areas where it does not rain most days of the year. It's not a new technique. And frankly, it's easier to re-roof without creating a leak over this than it is over step flashing which is trapped under the siding -- or stucco and similar materials. You know what happens with step flashing; the roofer just slaps a huge mass of tar over the old roof and lays the new shingles down in it rather than wrestle it into place. Then he goops up the wall-to-roof joint with more tar.

With a one-piece flashing, even on a cheapo reroof where they don't remove all the shingles they can simply cut off the first layer where it overlaps the flashing and go over it with the second layer. It still works fine. Nothing overruns the lip. OK, there are the rare cases where an idiot roofer mashes the lip flat so there is no slight ridging of the shingles. But then again, these types of mental giants also will either overlap the base flashing the wrong way, thereby directing water behind it (yes, I've seen it) or they will try to save a little flashing to cash in at the recycling center by stretching each piece of base flashing to cover 3 courses!

As I said, the lip on the flashing isn't visible in the photo. In actuality, around here its 1/2" long and rises a good 3/8" above the roof. Kind of like a sideways "J". This will handle a LOT of water efficiently, especially considering that there is usually a roof overhang above it which limits the amount of water getting to these types of joints anyway. Remember, the water tends to run down, not horizontally out towards the lip.

The critical issue, regardless of the type of flashing used, is the bottom termination. Almost all the problems I see, whether from this one piece flashing or 2 piece step flashing is due to improper discharge behind the wall cladding. I see plenty of both types done incorrectly.

And as for freezing, that isn't an issue where the photo was taken -- which was in Alabama. Nor is it an issue here. I was not recommending it for use nation-wide, merely pointing out a problem with the bottom of the run. That problem does exist everywhere, regardless of climate, but even more so in rainy ones. And it exists for both types of flashings.

I should point out that I recommend only copper flashing (of either type) when used with masonry construction. Want to see real dumb practices? Try using aluminum in contact with mortar.

The real problem as you indirectly pointed out, is workers who are either improperly trained or simply don't care.

[homnspector]

The point is, why would you want to allow water to get under the shingles? That is what this arrangement does. It's no better than a bucket in the attic. I'm betting the only reason these don't leak is the underlayment.

[Bill Kibbel]

Can anyone show a comp shingle manufacturers instructions that indicates the J-flashing is acceptable?

Can anyone show that anything other than step flashings are acceptable against sidewalls?

[hausdok]

Sorry,

You haven't convinced me - especially by saying it's in Alabama. I was stationed in Alabama at Ft. McClellan for four years and spent a lot of time out on the ranges in winter. It not only gets down to freezing, it snows quite a bit there. An ice dam formed on the roof of my government quarters and water leaked into my son's bedroom one winter.

I still say it's crap. Anyone that would flash a roof like that has his head so deeply inserted in his anus that he probably needs to go to the a proctologist for an eye exam.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[homnspector]

well, the good news is that "wonder88" is thoroughly enlightened now

[kurt]

I'm voting crap.

This is made up @ the moment crap, adopted by unknowledgeable tradesman, and (apparently) endorsed by HI's that don't know any better.

I second Kibbels comment; can anyone come up w/any recognition of this by any reputable source? Of course you can't, because it doesn't exist outside of the crappy roofers imagination, and the HI's that don't know any better.

And, there's HI's (right in this thread!) arguing that this is somehow better than step flashing because it allows one to install a second roof on the first easier and w/less hassle(?) Does anyone consider 2nd roof layers to also be better?

Anyone that thinks this is good stuff needs to go to the NRCA site & read up a bit.