Current inspection.

[StevenT]

I know NEC states Gas meter and electric service in the same enclosure is taboo, the "builder" states local utilities have accepted it... and an electrician I spoke to says it's done quite often and accepted.

And, double neutral taps in serice panel. Same electrician states this is also a common practice... with same gauge wire.

I personally don't like either. This electrician, although unlicensed, he is a union electrician and I've seen his work and he is good.

Image Insert:

113.02 KB

The insulation on the third neutral from the bottom is also burnt.

Image Insert:

67.28 KB

Do I include it?

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by StevenT

I know NEC states Gas meter and electric service in the same enclosure is taboo, the "builder" states local utilities have accepted it... and an electrician I spoke to says it's done quite often and accepted.

You can't have gas pipes in the same raceway as electrical wires but I wasn't aware of a prohibition on putting a gas meter and an electrical panel in the same closet. Do you have a reference for that? I wouldn't have even questioned it.

And, double neutral taps in serice panel. Same electrician states this is also a common practice... with same gauge wire.

It's certainly common practice but it's wrong. He should know better. It's been wrong for longer than he's been an electrician.

I'd just give him the reference to back up my opinion and ask him to produce a reference to back up his opinion.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[StevenT]

I thought I read in Doug Hanson's book that locating the gas meter in the same enclosure was wrong, but I just looked and can't find it there. I guess I'm wrong... I'm glad I mentioned it.

Thanks Jim

[hausdok]

Hi,

There are clearance requirements between meters and service entrances. Perhaps that's what you're thinking of.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[StevenT]

Hi Mike,

I could have sworn I read about "same enclosure", but it seems I'm wrong. When you say clearences, do you mean the max. distances from the meter to the main breaker?

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by StevenT

I thought I read in Doug Hanson's book that locating the gas meter in the same enclosure was wrong, but I just looked and can't find it there. I guess I'm wrong... I'm glad I mentioned it.

Well, don't give up that easily. I really haven't even looked it up yet. You could be right, I'd just never heard that restriction before.

I'll do some poking around.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[StevenT]

Jim,

Thank you for your support. I did not let you down. Code Check/Electrical, page 10, figs. 24 & 25 addresses the subject. There are NEC enclosure/clearence specifications. It also states the AHJ may accept otherwise. []

Mike, I think this is what you had mentioned.

I did an inspection this past Saturday for a client that backed out of a previous house due to my inspection findings. It was a house that I was challanged on, and was reinspected by the seller's HI. I stood by my report and prevailed. I believe I mentioned it a few threads back.

They then recommended me to a friend of theirs and he backed out of his deal as a result of my findings. He wasn't happy about previous termite treatments and rotted wood, etc.

I began to wonder if I was being overzealous, but to tell you the truth, I can't think of anything that I included that my clients didn't have the right to know.

This new prospective house... shack converted to house, is located on a very unusal lot. At the top on a ravine, at the dead end of a very wooded block that will never (probably never) be built on. A spot like this is very unusual for NYC (even Staten Island), and anybody could fall in love with it. I think my client is blinded by this, and that's ok with me. The house itself has been... not finished yet... renovated, by a builder that assembled a hodge-podge of bandaids, to a house that also appears to be a collection of ancient, illegal add ons.

I feel that if my client is aware of how much work the place needs, and how shoddy of a job the "builder" is doing, I did my job and he can decide whatever floats his boat.

He says he loves it enough to fix up little by little as time goes by. I don't blame him, I would do the same.

[Jim Katen]

OK, I've found the place where you read it. It's in the old edition of "Electrical Inspection of Existing Dwellings." My copy is copyright 1994-1998. It's in the bonding section on page 48.

It talks about how there should be a barrier between a gas meter and an electric meter and how the gas-side enclosure should be vented. It also says that the bonding connection can't happen within the gas meter space.

I've not yet found the NEC source for these rules. I suspect that they're somewhere in Article 500, Hazardous Locations. My guess is that when you put a gas meter in an enclosed space, you create a hazardous location (possible Class I, Division 2 -- I'm not really sure) because the meter includes a vented regulator that might let out a puff of gas now & then. Since most electrical panels that we run into aren't rated for use in hazardous locations, there needs to be a separation.

I have no idea whether or not any of this is correct, but I've run out of time to research it anymore today. I'll pick it up again tomorrow.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[StevenT]

Thanks

[Chad Fabry]

It looks as thought the working space in front of the panel may be violated by the meter assembly as well.

There's also improperly supported wiring to deal with. It doesn't look like these items are in an "enclosure". Are they in a closet or just in the same basement space?

[Chad Fabry]

The insulation on the third neutral from the bottom is also burnt.

Is that due to a double tap? If not, is caused by an improperly wired MWB? ie, on a space saver breaker?

To answer your question of "Do I include it my report?" I sure would.

[StevenT]

Hey Chad, How's things going?

To tell you the truth, I'm getting a bit gun shy. It seems everything I'm inspecting is crap covered over. I'd like to do an inspection and have the house sell. This house is a real dog. Don't get me wrong, I'd buy it in a flash... for the right price.

In my opinion, It was originally a large garage that someone put a second story on, added illegal sewer, maybe water too. It is buried at the end of a dead end, in the forest. I doubt if any of the work, inclding the current renevation is legal. It is nothing but bandaids, covered with sheetrock, and EIFS...

There are wires hanging all over the place. The burnt... actually melted insulation is not a double tap. Notice the 30 amp breaker... it's supplying power to a whirlppol bathtub.

By the way, the selling price is $595k

[AHI in AR]

Seems to me the solution is simple. If it indeed has been accepted by the local AHJ then the "builder" should not complain about you calling the local AHJ. That's exactly what I would do. Around here, they get real interested in an unpermitted job. They swoop in , shut the job down, and hold it for ransom in the form of triple the permit fee. If it has indeed been accepted by them, I'd state in my report that it is in contradiction to generally published and accepted standards but that the local AHJ has allowed it. That way you disclosed your concern and can CYA.

In my neck of the woods, you can't do it.

And also...if the electrician is unlicensed then just who supposedly took out the permit on it?

[StevenT]

The electrician I spoke of did work on other projects I'm involved with. Around here, lots of guys, plumber and electricians do work and pay to have it covered by someone with a license.

I have a feeling that this house was done with no permits, pans, etc. About 50 years ago, there was a fire in the building department. They lost all of the records and anything build before then can be made into just about anything. If you get away with the work, while in progress.

This house reeks of un-permitted work.

I wouldn't start a problem for two reasons. First, If my client wants the house... and he does, why would I open a can of worms for him. Secondly, I wouldn't want anyone to do it to me.

I have, simply informed my client of my findings and suspicions, he can decide whatever he wants to do. That is all I was hired to do. I advised him to have his attorney clarify and document the status of the plumbing, including the sewer and water. I also advised him to have his attorney do the same regarding the legality of the structure... And I recommended that he have a licensed electrician inspect the entire electrician and to SIGN OFF,on the job.