ASTM Organizational Meeting Failed to Unite

[dbyers]

I was intested in the first post to this thread, the content on the ASTM meeting. On the comments regarding Nick, I can do without. Comments on religion and politics are taboo, as is swearing, but I thought derogatory comments about associations or their leaders were also something TIG tries to stay away from.

Seems to me this is better suited to after work beverage sessions. Or, another Topic category could be created entitled, "NACHI sucks, No ASHI sucks, No NAHI sucks".

We talk about the HI business being a "profession". While TIG is viewed mainly by inspectors, I can imagine what outsiders think if and when they view this type of back and forth banter. Association bashing will not stop, but I think it has a place somewhere other than in a professional forum, dispite the fun had. IMHO, this thread should have been deleted after the first post. -Dave

[Les]

Dahc and ttocS, that is code of the highest order.

You both know it is a losing argument/discussion. Maybe we should try another thread.

[Scottpat]

Originally posted by txinspection

Originally posted by Jim Katen

Originally posted by txinspection

Originally posted by Scottpat

****Inappropriate content deleted by moderator.****

My thanks to the moderator of this forum for deleting

a misrepresentation. They had to do this at the last place

Scott attacked me. I'm not surprised anymore.

Mr. McKenna,

I didn't delete anything because of misrepresentations. I deleted material from both you and Mr. Patterson because it dealt with religion and the posting of private e-mail communications.

- Jim Katen

Because I know both side of what was posted by Scott, I can say it was a misrepresentation. I understand that you do not know the full content. Your policy of deleting personal emails is understood and accepted by me. Thanks.

I was responding to the previous posters comments about my religion and I will know from this time forward to not respond to those kinds of post in the future. I realize now that you would have deleted his comments to begin with and I had no need to respond. Thanks again.

I have had Scott follow me around other forums and he has had his post deleted in time past for this same kind of thing. So I am not suprised.

John,

Please don't think that I'm stalking you, I am not. As for deleted post the only time other than today that I have had post deleted was on your Blog. You did not agree with my opinion and you deleted it and sent me a school yard bully email.

But, I'm above that and if I can ever do anyting to help you please let me know.

Best,

[txinspection]

Originally posted by Scottpat

John,

Please don't think that I'm stalking you, I am not. As for deleted post the only time other than today that I have had post deleted was on your Blog. You did not agree with my opinion and you deleted it and sent me a school yard bully email.

But, I'm above that and if I can ever do anything to help you please let me know.

Best,

I believe you have forgotten that after my response to your attempts to

hijack my blog at activrain.com, you started a blog to pick up the same

bashing of me and Mr Gromicko. They made you delete that blog, remember?

If you want to help me, and you seem so nice at this time, please refrain

from posting skewed parts of email conversations, as the moderator

of this forum has informed you.

And... you can help me by not coming behind my post and asking me

if my post are real facts or not, knowing full well that you are attempting

to cast doubt on something you have not verified.

And... you can help me be showing me respect and I will gladly show

you that same respect in return. BTW... I enjoyed your pictures

at the other forum.

Have a good one.

[willlong]

Originally posted by ozofprev

Les,

You're right, mostly.

The best inspectors are smart - and you're one of 'em!

Katen is one of the brightest people I've read on a forum. I love to read Brian G's stuff - that guy seems really cool! I have learned so much from Kurt, Walter, Jimmy, Cramer, MikeO and others.

But the best haven't left the business. They define the business.

And members of the other 2 major associations would not even be required to do the two inspections.

[txinspection]

Just found this on activerain.com

It seems to paint another picture of Mr Gromicko and the ASTM meeting.

***************************************************************

http://activerain.com/blogsview/218042/ ... ng-details

ASTM Meeting details

This is a breakdown of what happened at the ASTM meeting.

Well, the motion to initiate an ASTM standard for home inspectors was defeated by a vote of about 109 to 53 (it was hard to hear the exact vote results through the applause). There were three abstentions, one was the NAR representative. The meeting started on time with a little over 160 persons present. It began with Pat Picariello ( pronounced: "Pick-Ah-Rello") first running through ASTM's history, similar standards and the standard-creating procedures at ASTM. There was an hour+ long Q&A session led by Mr. Picariello. This began the sharing of positions which, as was expected, all of NAHI was in favor of ASTM standards and everyone else was against. A few sarcastic jabs were exchanged amongst the attendees but mostly, the majority just wanted to get the vote over with.

The most damaging points that were voiced were that Mr. Picariello admitted that the "Producers" (home inspectors) would make up a minority of the persons populating the committees and the voting members; Real Estate Agents, Architects, Engineers, Lenders, HVAC Contractors, Plumbers, etc would outnumber the inspectors. Second, adoption of these standards by state legislatures or real estate organizations' contracts would create an opening for poor/inexperienced inspectors to enter the marketplace doing home inspections to ASTM standards. Also, ASTM would charge inspectors for the use of these standards and all associated forms; forms that could be specialized to various areas/subjects.

Lunch went from Noon to 1:20 PM.

Further explanation of the hierarchy of committees within the proposed standards-creating groups was explained by Mr. Picariello. At 1:50 PM, a motion was taken from the floor to proceed with the ASTM standard process which was seconded and initiated a comment period from the attendees. This is where the impassioned arguments commenced. By a margin greater than 2 to 1, speakers, including Frank Lesch, Don Norman, Marv Goldstein, and Nick Gromicko, argued that the standards that each of the national organizations maintain are well honed and serve the public much more positively than could an ASTM standard.

There was a couple of "kum bay yah" speeches from the NAHI members; one of which was surreptitiously stifled by the attendees shouts and moans. FYI: Nick Gromicko actually received the loudest applause for his speech on voting against the standard. The vote was taken by paper ballot. Several members asked repeatedly to have association rep's observe the ballot counting which was dismissed with a disgusted look by Mr. Picariello but I noticed that there were members watching the counting. The results were announced after Mr. Picariello thanked the attendees for coming and participating in this "emotional" vote. The meeting dissolved immediately.

Posted by Scott Patterson on 09/27/2007 10:11 AM

***************************************************

Thank you Scott.id="size5">

[Les]

Hey Will,

Your signature line has too many c's and e's - I think.

I don't understand your comment about the two other national organizations. I am not trying to be sarcastic, just don't get it.

I suppose you could say I might know of most national organizations and rarely have negative comments about any of them. I do occasionally lose my composure and comment on individual inspectors that puff up their credentials or might overstate their credentials. Most of my frustration comes from those that use phrases like "75yrs in the construction business, when they really mean 2yrs inspection experience. We all have to make a living, but sometimes we all get a little full of ourselves.

[kurt]

Originally posted by Chad Fabry

It groaned but it held.

Sometimes I groan when I'm held.

Fade to sunset, pan to horizon, closing credits, lights off........

[Brad Manor]

Perhaps we could take a moment to read this thread fron to back with a fresh set of eyes. What was well on its way to being a great discussion of how we as a community can turn what we do into a profession. It then went into a four wheel slide into the very reason why we aren't getting anywhere. It's our sandbox, lets find a way to play nice.

-Brad

[txinspection]

It seems that we have two conflicting tales of how people responded to Mr Gromicko. I really get tired of people saying we should act professionally and then spending so much time mocking Mr Gromicko with slanted news.

[ozofprev]

John,

As a percentage, the time we spend here talking about Nick is negligible. With your recent fanfare of an entrance, that percentage has increased solely because of you. Your 10-15 posts hardly gives you the right to generalize the rest of us.

IMO,

[Brad Manor]

I have never met Mr. Gromicko, nor have I had any direct dealings with him so my only basis for information is from what I read. It is not too hard to gather the intensity with which some of his followers admire him. One suggestion however: If he tells all of you to drink the Kool-Aid, think twice.[]

-Brad

[kurt]

Originally posted by ozofprev

John,

As a percentage, the time we spend here talking about Nick is negligible. With your recent fanfare of an entrance, that percentage has increased solely because of you. Your 10-15 posts hardly gives you the right to generalize the rest of us.

IMO,

Yes, for the sake of all of us, yes.

I have reviewed this topic in the past w/my unilaterally stable teenage daughter, who only commented "why does anyone care?". When an otherwise disinterested teenager can find the centerspot, one would hope folks in the biz could also.

Can we stop now?

[John Dirks Jr]

If the ideas of new national standards are ever going to come to fruition, the sooner the better for younger bloods like me. Some of you older dogs may disagree for your own reasons, but for me.....bring it on.

One or two more hurdles aint no thing.

[SonOfSwamp]

Originally posted by txinspection

Originally posted by randynavarro

John,

I see you have a link to Consumer Reports magazine on your website. On your site you state that "Consumer Reports recommends NACHI Inspectors".

I checked the link and the small blurb printed in Consumer Reports. It says nothing of the kind.

Isn't this a bit mis-leading to the consumer?

Your credibilty is already in question, in my book.

Tip #29 in Consumer Report's new guide recommends hiring a NACHI

inspector exclusively and to find one at nachi.org

You will have to talk to Consumer Report if you have an issue with

their publication and their choice to print a recommendation for

NACHI home inspectors.

**** Portions of this post contained inappropriate content and were deleted by the moderator****

Pardon my jumping in, but Consumer Reports hasn't recommended NACHI for anything. Imagine a magazine with the rep and clout of Consumer Reports trying to figure out which HI org serves up the best home inspectors.

NACHI has put up a web page, nachi.org/consumerreports2006.htm which shows what appears to be a tear sheet from Consumer Reports' Stress-Free Guide to Family Finance. There's a statement on the NACHI site that offers: Tip #29 in Consumer Report's new guide recommends hiring a NACHI inspector exclusively and to find one at nachi.org. There's also a headline on this website that states: "Consumer Reports recommends NACHI in 4 million guides."id="blue">

Well, that's just plain untrue, if they're going by the words on the (alleged) tear sheet. The (alleged) tear sheet closes with this pitch from Gromicko: "Find a local independent home inspector who can perform an objective two hour, roof-to-crawl space review for about $300 at nachi.org"

It's deceptive advertising, pure and simple. I feel sure that if anyone brought this chicanery to CR's attention, CR would post a retraction/correction in a future magazine.

There's more stuff on the website that might be worth challenging. For instance, the text below:

Chicago Sun-Times, America's 10th largest newspaper, recommends hiring a certified NACHI inspector.

MetLife magazine puts out 11 million copies of NACHI article.

ACE, Avon, CVS, Giant, WAL-MART, Home Depot, Kroger, Menards, True Value all recommending NACHI inspectors to consumers.

NACHI releases Manual for a Happy Home, Maintenance Guide for Homeowners.

NACHI releases Homeowner's Handbook.

Timber Homes Illustrated magazine Annual Buyer's Directory recommends NACHI members exclusively.

NACHI sends out 250,000 Home Head Start Guides to consumers.

www.InspectorSEEK.com

www.InspectorLocator.com

www.InspectorNOW.com

www.reliablelab.com

Apparently, nobody at NACHI knows that an offhand media mention that gets put up on a rah-rah in-house website isn't exactly a ringing recommendation.

WJ

[ozofprev]

Hi John,

I'm a little confused as to why you think the 'old dogs' aren't in favor of a national standard. If I haven't gone senile at 54, it seems to me that a national standard is favored by most everyone - especially the old dogs.

What bothers many is the ASTM. What many also realize is that politics, the NAR and state control of local building practices makes the task near impossible.

It is my hope that you youngbloods fight many successful battles that do establish national entry requirements, higher standards and public perception.

[hausdok]

Well,

I've stayed largely out of this one, but I think Mr. Gromicko should keep his trap shut when it comes to what a home inspection should cost. The average price of a home inspection around here - at least for experienced inspectors who're honest - hasn't been $300 in nearly a decade. By making such a foolish statement, he's advising consumers to hire low ballers and giving them unrealistic expectations.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[ozofprev]

Walter,

I believe everything you wrote is clearly factual to an intelligent observer. Seems to me, however, that you are trying to enlighten a rock. (But if anyone could...)

[Chad Fabry]

By making such a foolish statement, he's advising consumers to hire low ballers and giving them unrealistic expectations.

Think about that.

[John Dirks Jr]

Originally posted by ozofprev

Hi John,

I'm a little confused as to why you think the 'old dogs' aren't in favor of a national standard. If I haven't gone senile at 54, it seems to me that a national standard is favored by most everyone - especially the old dogs.

What bothers many is the ASTM. What many also realize is that politics, the NAR and state control of local building practices makes the task near impossible.

It is my hope that you youngbloods fight many successful battles that do establish national entry requirements, higher standards and public perception.

No sweat Gary,

I said "some" not "all" of you old dogs. My main point was the sooner the better, especially for those that are newer to the industry. Old was not intended to be a reference to the age of the person.

I can definitely understand how politics can complicate things. If I survive to the point where my words actually mean something credible to the group, you can bet I'll be speaking up when I believe I have something to offer.

I'm 43 now and I have at least 20 years to give. In those same 20 years I also have a great deal to gain.

I never deny the benefits of discourse.

[kurt]

I guess I'm an old dog, and I've got no gripe w/the idea of a national standard.

I think the problem is it's almost impossible to have anything that would apply nationally be anything other than an extremely general generic overview.

[Brad Manor]

I'm reasonably new in this profession (can we call it that yet?) and I am OK with standardizing it for the most part. My only real concern is that we absolutely must get it right the first time. If we rush into things, or let our enthusiasm overwhelm our judgment, we may end up shooting ourselves in our collective foot. Of course that is just my opinion as a rookie. I'm sure as I mature in this business, my opinions will be refined over and over.

-Brad

[Chris Bernhardt]

I don't understand the subject line of this thread. I don't understand why Mr. Gromicko would be considered a laughing stock. If any of us had a shot a forming are own association amongst such as an ASHI or NAHI we would be assured of one thing: ridicule.

Although it would be nice to have a national standard, I can't imagine we would ever agree on one at this point. And even if we did each association would practice under the SOP with differing ideologies.

Chris, Oregon

[SonOfSwamp]

Originally posted by ozofprev

Walter,

I believe everything you wrote is clearly factual to an intelligent observer. Seems to me, however, that you are trying to enlighten a rock. (But if anyone could...)

Well, it did occur to me that the dumbest prospective homebuyers in America will be attracted to the sloppiest home inspectors in America.

Says the reeltor, "Mr. Dumbass, meet Mr. Clayhead."

Works out just right for everybody concerned, if you ask me...

WJ

[SonOfSwamp]

Originally posted by kurt

I guess I'm an old dog, and I've got no gripe w/the idea of a national standard.

I think the problem is it's almost impossible to have anything that would apply nationally be anything other than an extremely general generic overview.

Seriously. Maybe it's just me, but I think the idea of a national standard for home inspectors is just nuts. House parts vary widely from Maine to Calfornia. The differences are crazier than Apollo-Soyuz.

In some parts of the country, everybody has a boiler. Me, I saw two boilers in 20 years. And I was 32 years old before I ever heard of a "snow dog."

Roof shingles on the north side of a house behave differently from the shingles on the south side. Writing the shingle standard ought to be a hoot. And then there are Joe L's crazy things that builders do down South, and up North. Ventilate the attic? Or not? How 'bout the crawl space? And somebody show me the elusive "self-flashing window" that's installed on Bigfoot's house.

Somebody thinks we can homogenize all this micro-regional stuff into something useful and comprehensible? And then hand out tens of thousands of copies to a workforce that comprises a whole lot of folks who can't read USA Today, let alone code books, manufacturer's specs and trade-association guidelines?

The poor homebuyers would be better off if we forbade a national standard for HI work. Just let 'em hire the best local guy they can find.

If we ever come up with a "standard," the HIs of America will be as useless as the clerks at Circuit City. "Uh, let me go find the manager," says the kid as he disappears for the rest of the day...

WJ