Is a professional "certification" worth it?

[SonOfSwamp]

My thing is, until and unless people who want to get into the HI biz have a baseline GED-level education, and the ability to perform at the GED-passer level, it doesn't matter how much tech they learn. HIs don't get paid to make things or fix things. They get paid to research, understand and explain things.

Every time I go to the courthouse for an EW job, the builder's lawyer (always the dumbest guy in the room) tries to have me disqualified as an expert because I never swung a hammer. Even so, I always qualify.

Without the basic education that allows a person to continue learning, folks can't do the job well. We've got people who've learned how to work with just their hands, trying to do a job that requires mostly brains.

Maybe Kurt's right; things might improve in the future. Right now, though, the skillset of the workers just doesn't match up to the needs of the customers.

WJ

[kurt]

Originally posted by SonOfSwamp

Maybe Kurt's right; things might improve in the future. Right now, though, the skillset of the workers just doesn't match up to the needs of the customers.

WJ

I definitely agree w/the last sentence, and only lean on the first because I'd get depressed if I didn't.

[Les]

What if we had one, or more, inspectors that were "highly" qualified? Would the industry listen?

For instance a kid that: Loved high school - Latin, English, Spanish, heavy math and social study. Three years in Army - running, jumping, beating up on people, drinking, shooting and generally traveling around the world creating havoc. Liberal arts college for four years - usual hippy stuff. Another four years at a school of economics - trying to learn what happens with and to money. Just for kicks another year learning to teach.

Familial info - father was builder, mother was probate court register and judge. Three sisters - all quite accomplished except one who is a lowly PA. The kid grew up, married, single parent, traveled extensively, married again (better that time), became politically active and settled into life. Oh ya, was a home inspector for a few decades, only real job the kid ever had.

Does that qualify the kid in the education department, experience department, and makin' money department?

Ya Ya, the kid is me! I love talking about this stuff, but all it is, is just talk and I really don't have any answers, just opinion.

Bonnie will rip the writing, WJ will inspect the syntax, spelling and words, Kurt will parse everything to make it logical - AND I LIKE IT!!!

Never happen this generation of inspectors, 'cause we are all strong independant souls, by necessity. We had to feed our family and pay the bills and precious few even acknowledge we may have something to say.

[ozofprev]

Originally posted by Les

What if we had one, or more, inspectors that were "highly" qualified? Would the industry listen?

Yes, much of 'the industry' listens and learns now from the best (Katen, Kurt, Walter, Chad and others).

For instance ...

Does that qualify the kid in the education department, experience department, and makin' money department?

If you learned how to learn, sure. (And you did, Les!)

Never happen this generation of inspectors, 'cause we are all strong independant souls, by necessity. We had to feed our family and pay the bills and precious few even acknowledge we may have something to say.

True, but I really like Kurt's optimism. BTW, I deleted my earlier post - which was tongue-in-cheek statement that I left the industry because of the riff-raff. The riff-raff didn't have any influence on me.

I enjoyed doing inspections, and I miss the cool dialogs here. I just didn't like being part of something so potentially litigious (I'm retired, and I don't want to lose my savings!!!).

As someone who graduated first in his class with a BS in building science, I want to add that a building science degree is very helpful, but it is not a perfect match for home inspecting.

It does not matter, from an HI perspective, that I can provide an accurate estimate of a construction project, do cut/fill calculations, generate PERT or CPM charts for a project, draw shear & moment diagrams and design trusses by sections or solve a diff eq.

It does matter that I did not learn the specifics of electrical panels, bonding and grounding. I did not learn in detail how a GFCI works. Those specifics are not important to a GC, which is what a building science degree is designed around.

I learned many specifics of home inspecting by reading books that target the trades - and by hanging out here.

It seems to me that the future of home inspecting will depend to a large extent on the state in which you live. In NY, PE's are very influential on our laws. In NY, GC's are not licensed. As Walter points out, there is also the Realtor crap.

My hope is that the HI biz does get the respect it deserves. Although the average PE or building science graduate is a much better inspector than most current inspectors, he is not as good at inspecting a building as, say, Kurt, Chad, or Katen.

[Les]

Hey Gary,

Nice to see you back at the board!

Just a quickie thought - The liability comes from where? I think it comes from every "Tom, Dick and Harry" that got into the business. You and I are of the same ilk, only I am stuck here after 25 years.

How is the new job doing? The little project you and I talked about has mushroomed into a full scale job and gotten political. Never volunteer!

And finally, I agree with your posting above.

[kurt]

Baseline, it's a really strange gig.

My trajectory isn't the same, but it's curiously similar to Les'; I was doing something else, and 25 years later, I'm a building inspector.

My education is homemade; get close to those that know what I need to know, shut up, and listen.

Seems there's folks out there that need what I got. At least, my phone continues to ring, and I go out & do the jobs. The only "State of the Profession" that I'm really worried about is centered pretty much in a 5' circle that includes me and the customer I'm working for @ the time.

After that, I've learned to let the "professional societies" take charge, as there's seemingly no end to those willing to get on the soap box and extemporize about where the profession should go. So far, no one's gotten it right.

Don't point that out to the societies though; folks take all the Pro Society stuff real personal.

Lotta thread drift in this one.......

[Les]

After that, I've learned to let the "professional societies" take charge, as there's seemingly no end to those willing to get on the soap box and extemporize about where the profession should go. So far, no one's gotten it right.

Maybe, just maybe, there are some that have it right. I am optimistic.

[kurt]

Originally posted by Les

Maybe, just maybe, there are some that have it right. I am optimistic.

There's folks within all the org's that know where to go, but the baggage of the organization prevents much happening.

Remember when a few of us were talking about the ITA hegemony @ ASHI? Jeeeeezus, one would have thought we were talking about UFO's, or space alien abductions. Seems a few folks were onto something, and the "leaders" were charlatans. And, lots of them still hold sway. I still have one question; Why is anyone that was involved in branding still being listened to? If that isn't proof the society isn't ingrown, I don't know what is.

"Professional Societies"? Nice idea, got a lot done, could do a lot more, but it's all kinda stagnant @ this point.

[SonOfSwamp]

Y'know, I'll add a little to the drift.

If I had to boil HI competency down to the essentials, I'd say it's a perfect job for an independent person with a sharp intellect and inquiring mind.

There's little, if any, meaningful HI education. The HI schools, the HI books, the HI continuing education are essentially jokes.

The best -- and most successful -- HIs I know are self-taught. Sometimes, I think the best way to upgrade the profession is for bright people who want to do this work to run away from the existing HI "infrastructure," and just concentrate on being an excellent one- or two-man shop. The "system," such as it is, is built on mediocrity and glaring conflicts of interest.

And, I'll say it again: Nobody should be able to do this work without first passing the GED (or maybe getting a Mensa card). It's just not a job for folks who struggled in high school.

WJ

[Scottpat]

Hell, I struggled through high school and college. Well, come to think of it I had a good time in high school and college and that might be why it was a struggle! []

[kurt]

Originally posted by SonOfSwamp

Y'know, I'll add a little to the drift.

If I had to boil HI competency down to the essentials, I'd say it's a perfect job for an independent person with a sharp intellect and inquiring mind.

There's little, if any, meaningful HI education. The HI schools, the HI books, the HI continuing education are essentially jokes.

The best -- and most successful -- HIs I know are self-taught. Sometimes, I think the best way to upgrade the profession is for bright people who want to do this work to run away from the existing HI "infrastructure," and just concentrate on being an excellent one- or two-man shop. The "system," such as it is, is built on mediocrity and glaring conflicts of interest.

And, I'll say it again: Nobody should be able to do this work without first passing the GED (or maybe getting a Mensa card). It's just not a job for folks who struggled in high school.

WJ

All true.

One might be able to expand to more than a 2 person shop, but the pathway is obscure, and lordy, it must also be painful.

And, the GED part. Good Gawd yes. It boggles the mind that this hasn't become a central basic requirement, and recognized as such by all the "certifying" groups, including the states licensing laws.

[Lewis Capaul]

Part of the problem with attempting to attract younger people to an expensive college course is going to be, I'm afraid to say, the lack of "glamor" in Home Inspection. It will be hard to convince many that Inspecting is better than "Constructing".

If like me, you remember back to your younger days in construction, you can recall the sense of satisfaction you had each day when you left the job site looking back at the physical evidence of what you had accomplished that day. That's something I miss in home inspection even today, way too many years later.

Any college course is going to have to be set up to allow credit for work experience because many entering the Home Inspection business are still going to be coming from the trades and construction industry. Mike O', seems to have some of the same "Army" background as I do, Army Engineering, and as we both grew up in construction and had quite a bit of experience before joining the Army, he can probably relate, as many can, how damn boring it is to set through a class that is a waste of time for you and where you often know more about the subject than the instructor.

Those with experience should be able to "Test out" of certain courses by taking both a written test and a hands on demonstration and evaluation of their skills. Any curriculum designed for Home Inspection should eliminate all subjects that some of you call fluff, but on which Colleges and Universities rely on to make money. Someone mentioned English, it should be no more than Eng 101 and Technical writing, there should also be some classes on public speaking. The classes on actual Home Inspection should be similar to Trade School Classes, direct, to the point, and related directly to the subject or system involved. Any degree offered should be a two year "Technical Degree".

In my opinion a four year degree would be a waste of time and great waste of money. If potential inspectors were required to complete a 4 year program, you would lose a lot of them to other professions like engineering and architecture, partly for, as I said the lack of glamor in Home Inspecting.

but These "Fluff" courses have been one of my many complaints about Higher Education for many years. Every year the cost of a four year degree increases dramatically and has reached the point where it is very difficult for the average working family to get their kids through college. The "Well Rounded Graduate" may have been a great idea long ago when the cost was not so high, but now the required fluff can more than double the costs of a degree in any field. It might be nice for an engineer, a computer scientist, a doctor, and many others, to be able to speak a couple of foreign languages, and to be able to tell which artist made which painting,

but none of that "fluff" is essential for the job the graduate is seeking.

"Fluff" is also harming America's standing and ability to compete in the world market, the added expense of "fluff" prevents us from turning out the scientists, engineers, mathematicians, and many other necessary professionals. Many European and Asian Universities train Engineers as Engineers, Scientists as Scientists, they don't waste two years of education studying Art, Philosophy, etc., much of the "fluff" would be nice to have, but it's an unnecessary luxury that most American Students can't afford.

Well that's my ramble for today, I keep finding myself laughing about the "outing" of MYSenator, the great conservative family value guy, Larry Craig. "He who shouts the loudest often has something to hide", another "social" conservative chased out of the closet. What a great day.

[kurt]

Originally posted by Lewis Capaul

Well that's my ramble for today, I keep finding myself laughing about the "outing" of MYSenator, the great conservative family value guy, Larry Craig. "He who shouts the loudest often has something to hide", another "social" conservative chased out of the closet. What a great day.

Bored writing a condo report, so drift it is......

Who knows if what he did is illegal, but it was certainly peculiar, especially for someone implicated in the sex scandals w/Congressional pages back in the 80's. Did you read the part about how, after he was arrested, Mr. Senator took out his Senator's business card, showed it to the officer, and said, "What do you think about that?"

IOW, he thinks being a Senator makes him immune from following the laws he votes into place.

It would all be sad & unfortunate if the guy was a decent person; I mean, how tortuous would it be to closet oneself, and not be able to come to terms w/one's basic humanity? One has to have a certain empathy for folks that live secret lives, tortured by their own truths.

But, since he's someone that's wants to amend the constitution to ban gay marriage, that places the guy someplace else. When it comes to destroying other peoples lives to maintain your own secrets, you cross the line and become despicable.

[SonOfSwamp]

Originally posted by Lewis Capaul

but These "Fluff" courses have been one of my many complaints about Higher Education for many years. Every year the cost of a four year degree increases dramatically and has reached the point where it is very difficult for the average working family to get their kids through college.

Tell me about it. My whole 3-1/2-year college education cost about $3000. A year of college now is about 10 times that, or more. (My kid's been to college now for 2 days. Sigh.)id="blue">

The "Well Rounded Graduate" may have been a great idea long ago when the cost was not so high, but now the required fluff can more than double the costs of a degree in any field. It might be nice for an engineer, a computer scientist, a doctor, and many others, to be able to speak a couple of foreign languages, and to be able to tell which artist made which painting, but none of that "fluff" is essential for the job the graduate is seeking.

I mostly agree. I seriously considered handing my daughter a check equivalent to 4 years of tuition money, and saying, "Here. Sink or swim." Really, college is just a place where you pay a lot of money for people to explain what's in the books you can get for free at the library. A bright kid with an inquiring mind could get a fine college education just by haunting the library.

But somewhere along the line, sometime during the pre-job years, a young adult has to learn how to learn. A fair bit of that fluff is "Eureka!" material.

WJid="blue">

[Lewis Capaul]

Kurt, I think you missed the part about Craig being "MY" Senator, regrettably he has been for way too long. There have been stories going around here in Idaho for years about him being gay. He and I got into a nose to nose several years ago, 3 months later I got a letter from the IRS telling me I owed them money from several years before, one of those threatening and accusing letters they send. I called the IRS to find out what was going on and told them their letter sucked. I also jokingly told the guy on the phone that I found it odd that a case so many years old should come up so soon after an argument with my Senator. He was quiet for a minute and then said that he was sorry to say that sometimes some Senators and Congress men's offices did call and have them "look into" an individual's tax history, then I was really mad, I still don't know if it was just a coincidence or spite on the part of Craig's office, even though I tend to believe he or one of his aides was behind it.

Being Gay isn't the problem, I don't care what anyone's sexual preference is, unless like some religious zealots, they try to push it on me or my kids. It's the hypocrisy that offends me, especially from those who shout so loud against someone else's lifestyle, while hiding in the closet themselves. He won't survive next years election.

If I didn't have an Inspection this afternoon, I'd go down to my good old boy tavern and have a few beers and laughs with the guys. It's a great day anyway.

[Les]

My first tuition bill was for $156.00 for full load at state 4yr college. Somewhere around the $3,000 per year mark.

Yesterday my youngest son started at a Florida college for approx $42,000 per year. My grandson started yesterday at a Michigan college at approx $24,000 per year. Both also bought $600.00 for books! I can't change the marketplace, so it is worth every penny. It was for me.

I am getting confused by the latest Senate escapade. Honestly, I don't really care about the guy and his life style, that is for Lewis to consider. I have my hands full with Sen Stabenaw and Sen Levine!

Back on track. I personally like any certificate or certification I earned. There are exceptions: XRF license, 203K consulting, and some Environmental stuff I earned in the late '80s.

I "like" my low member number in the leading national association and feel a little smug when I have to give someone my Contractor's license number. But I also feel good when I sit in a class next to a new inspector and think "I better pay attention, this guy is sharp".

[ozofprev]

Originally posted by Les

Hey Gary,

Nice to see you back at the board!

Just a quickie thought - The liability comes from where? I think it comes from every "Tom, Dick and Harry" that got into the business. You and I are of the same ilk, only I am stuck here after 25 years.

How is the new job doing? The little project you and I talked about has mushroomed into a full scale job and gotten political. Never volunteer!

And finally, I agree with your posting above.

It's all good, Les. My new job is just my old job - but now I only do it when I feel like it. Lately, I've been spending a lot of time on the golf course. I shot an 86 today - that's good for me. I walk the 18 holes, so I'm getting a decent workout too. But this is Buffalo, so I'm considering indoor tennis for the winter months.

I am very fortunate to be retired, but I have to keep challenging myself. I might start flight instructing again if my wife and I move to NC (where my son lives).

[Lewis Capaul]

"But this is Buffalo, so I'm considering indoor tennis for the winter months." Gary

The last time I was in Buffalo was back in the 70's when we came up from Ft. Bragg to dig you out of the snow. We dug out a Semi that had been buried for 3 days, we could hear country music blasting away and when we opened the door a bunch of beer cans, potato chip bags, and Pot Smoke rolled out, the driver was so drunk and stoned he wasn't too happy to be rescued, but he was really funny, we had to hide him from the cops until he sobered up. It was a great trip, a lot of really good people there who treated us great.

If I lived in buffalo though, I would consider Golf in Florida or Arizona for the Winter months, which is 9 months out of the year isn't it?

[Chris Bernhardt]

Seems like I remember earlier this year or maybe last year (time flies) that there was an article in Forbes or whatever giving honest advice to not waste to much money on college and just focus on learning what you need to know.

I remember this lesson from my mentor when I was an engineer newbie. I would come to him with all these questions about how this worked and that worked and I had gotten my self so confused trying to find the answers in the books. He told me to forget the books and get a couple of handful of transistors and start playing with them until I figured out how they worked.

Chris, Oregon

[hausdok]

Hi,

I definitely agree about the "fluff" in the college courses. Not too long ago, I tried to sit down to figure out how many hours of college course learning one could probably cram this business into, without adding any non-essential crap.

Allowing for a two-week vacation, there are essentially fifty 40-hour weeks in a year and that gives you 2000 hours. The average college course around here is around 30 classroom hours to earn 3 semester hours of credit. It takes about 20 courses to earn that 60 hours of credit to earn an AA degree and that essentially amounts to 1800 hrs in the classroom spread out over 6 semesters in 2 years, or only 900 hours in the classroom per year.

The way I figure it, if a course taught only the essentials necessary for business, building science. home inspection, report writing and codes, 5 days of the week, one could cram between 1500 and 2000 hours of classroom training into a single year, still let those students have two days off a week and a two-week break, and still come out ahead of the guy who spends 2 years moseying his way through the typical 2-year college course.

When I attended the 18C course in the army they crammed more than 800 hours of classroom/lab/field training in only 5 months. It was swim or sink. If you couldn't keep up, you washed out. Hell, I have students at the community college where I teach who act like getting a homework assignment is weird and they just love to get up and walk out of the classroom in the middle of a lecture and then get pissed when I dock them class hours for it.

Why couldn't a college course be tailored for the serious student that eliminated all of the fluff and put the student full-immersion into the new profession? The student could attend school for a year and then do a 1 year internship with an established company to get experience and the combination of the classroom work and the internship would earn the student some kind of professional designation like the engineers have. Isn't that essentially how ITT Tech and these other fast-track colleges work?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[ozofprev]

Hi Mike,

You have done your homework. I believe your idea of an ITT Tech sort of curriculum is certainly better than the current HI school offerings. IMO, a prerequisite for admission to such a program should include HS diploma or GED and an entrance exam that includes a writing sample.

The writing sample is important. Sentence structure and grammar are not the primary reasons for such a requirement. Rather, the sample reveals a student's ability to logically structure relevant thoughts into paragraphs. It is as important to filter fluff students as it is to filter fluff coursework.

In my ideal-world model, the current leaders of this industry would teach the courses, demand excellence, and create a marketable credential that rightfully shames CMI-type certificates. There would be an apprenticeship that requires face time with the instructors - so this could not be done entirely online. And the instructors would not allow their egos to lessen the learning experience.

It's nice to daydream...

[SonOfSwamp]

Originally posted by ozofprev

Hi Mike,

The writing sample is important. Sentence structure and grammar are not the primary reasons for such a requirement. Rather, the sample reveals a student's ability to logically structure relevant thoughts into paragraphs. It is as important to filter fluff students as it is to filter fluff coursework.

I heartily agree. I think that a person's writing is a near-perfect window into his thinking. Bad writing = bad thinking. Screen out the bad writers, and you'll screen out the bad thinkers. (A few typos are forgiveable.)

I think...

WJid="blue">

[kurt]

Me too.

But boy oh boy, what a daydream.

When the most used report in the business is the ITA Matrix Hairball system, that speaks volumes about interest in writing ability.

[SonOfSwamp]

Originally posted by kurt

Me too.

But boy oh boy, what a daydream.

When the most used report in the business is the ITA Matrix Hairball system, that speaks volumes about interest in writing ability.

And speaks even larger about interest in thinking ability. For some reason, people don't recognize the fact that the words on a page are the writer's thoughts, straight from his or her brain...

WJid="blue">

[ozofprev]

Oh yeah, clearly a dream.

But it would be a step toward raising the public image of home inspectors. That image must be slipping given the current lot.

The difference between an average home inspector and the likes of Katen/Kurt/Chad/Jimmy/Les/Walter... should not be so great.

Can't you guys get together and create a curriculum, teach the courses and certify the handful who meet your collective standards? C'mon, how hard can it be? Man, it is nice to daydream!