Reporting Asbestos

[hausdok]

Hi All,

Well, I think the subject has already been pretty well discussed. Call it asbestos if you've a mind to, or not; the decision is ultimately going to be a personal one.

If I might, allow me to editorialize a little bit here. For some of you, WJ is the new guy on the board and I can sense that you resent it when he's critical of your writing or choice of words. Well, he may be a new face at TIJ, but many of us have known him for years on another message board and are accustomed to his style. If his critiques sting a little, give it some time; his style is very blunt and to the point and takes some getting used to. However, those of us he's scolded once or twice about our choice of words have, in the end, learned to write a little better because of it (I just know Bonnie is out there reading this and itching to dissect this paragraph. [:-scared]).

Walter actually writes for a living. However, he didn't always, and I can guaranty you that somewhere in his past there was an editor sitting there chopping up his work, admonishing him for his choice of words, and forcing him to remember some of what he'd learned in school but had forgotten. If Walter had not listened to his editors and continued to make the same mistakes, he would have found himself out of a job. So, he had to force himself to learn those lessons.

It's the pretty rare home inspector who began his or her adult life wanting to inspect homes. Before we backed into the home inspection business, for decades most of us did something else and many didn't realize when we got into this business that being good at what we do also means becoming a professional writer. When one writes professionally for a living, your work is expected to be professional. When WJ critiques your writings here, look past the initial feelings of embarrassment and resentment to the lesson being taught; it truly will help you become better at what you do.

Kudos to all of you for maintaining your professionalism throughout this and so many other discussions here on TIJ. I think that one of the characteristics of a true professional is resiliency. A professional is able to absorb criticism of his or her work, analyze that criticism, take what's useful from it in order to get better at what he or she does, and moves on with life without taking the criticism personal and striking back just for the sake of striking back. I surf a lot of different HI boards (You'd be amazed at how many there actually are.), and I'm continually dismayed by the amount of enmity, and sometimes downright hatred, that I see spewed on some of them. Thankfully, we see very little of that here at TIJ because folks here manage to maintain their professionalism in spite of so many differences. It's gratifying, to me at least, that myself and the moderators only rarely have to exercise our delete keys.

Thank you all.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Brian G]

Originally posted by kurt

If someone stands up in class blathering discombobulated nonsense, is the teacher supposed to politely listen, thank the student for their contribution, and then let class out for recess?

Nope. I think we all have a moral obligation to counter bad HI information when we see it. If a debate ensues, fine; we'll see where the chips fall.

To the end, what about this particular statement by Brian K.:

"We have some other insulation that looks very similar to the asbestos and most of the time you can tell the difference but I will never call it out as asbestos."id="maroon">

Is there a similar-looking insualtion out there, or not?

I've got a strange idea that this is a professional job, and if someone, at this point in the 21st century, doesn't know w/absolute certainty that the material on the pipes in the photo is asbestos, they have no right doing the job.

I love you brother, but that's just too broad and absolute for me. Asbestos has never been covered in any classes I've taken, we have no boilers here, and the only time I saw pipes like that in person they were in a commercial building (and I wasn't even working). All we have is floor tiles and Transite pipe. How am I supposed to know about that pipe insulation with absolute certainty, with no first-hand experience or training? Why wouldn't it enough to say "I'm pretty sure, but get it tested", if I did find pipes like that tomorrow?

Brian G.

Experience & Environment Are Not Universal [8]

[Mark P]

I see this once every month or two. In addition to recommending the services of an asbestos abatement company to determine the best coarse of action. I recommend that my customers obtain the booklet "Asbestos in the Home" published by the U.S. Consumer Products Safety Commission. The EPA # is 800-368-5888. http://www.epa.gov/iaq/asbestos.html

[kurt]

Originally posted by Brian G.

Originally posted by kurt

"We have some other insulation that looks very similar to the asbestos and most of the time you can tell the difference but I will never call it out as asbestos."id="maroon">

Is there a similar-looking insualtion out there, or not?

I've got a strange idea that this is a professional job, and if someone, at this point in the 21st century, doesn't know w/absolute certainty that the material on the pipes in the photo is asbestos, they have no right doing the job.

I love you brother, but that's just too broad and absolute for me. Asbestos has never been covered in any classes I've taken, we have no boilers here, and the only time I saw pipes like that in person they were in a commercial building (and I wasn't even working). All we have is floor tiles and Transite pipe. How am I supposed to know about that pipe insulation with absolute certainty, with no first-hand experience or training? Why wouldn't it enough to say "I'm pretty sure, but get it tested", if I did find pipes like that tomorrow?

Brian G.

Experience & Environment Are Not Universal [8]

There is a cheesecloth & metal banded wrapped cellulose that, if one hasn't ever seen the stuff, one might imagine that it could be asbestos. It is mildly frightening to me that anyone working in the land of boilers and asbestos couldn't tell the difference. It's plain as day. I'll look for pics.....

If it isn't covered in any of the classes, especially one's dealing w/hydronic heating systems, I can only have disparaging remarks about the value of the class.

How, after more than 2 decades of high visibility litigation, billions of dollars of class action suits, EPA bulletins, public announcements, and solid public awareness that there's something called asbestos out there, how in the world can this stuff not be getting taught in class?

There's a very simple answer, but I've insulted enough folks today, so I'll save taking on the entire HI school thing for another day.

As far as your specific locale, how hard is it to recognize transite pipe, or asbestos floor tile? Heck, the EPA came right out and stated any 9x9 tile has asbestos content years ago. If you're comfortable knowing what transite & tile look like, what's the problem w/knowing what pipe lagging looks like?

This is not hard stuff. It's simple. I think really smart folks like yourself still hang onto that thing a little bit about "can't know". I've done it; did it for years.

Since I started not doing it several years ago, business has gotten much better, I've managed to totally get out from under the realtorzoids, I charge more, and folks really like it because I tell them stuff flat out.

My very quick witted friend, if you really aren't sure, then you can say that thing about "pretty sure it is, but have it tested". I'll understand. There's probably stuff in Mississippi I wouldn't recognize either.

[kurt]

Originally posted by SonOfSwamp

Those HIs who can't or won't take correction -- be it gentle or harsh -- will sooner or later end up meeting somebody like me at the courthouse.

WJ[/blue]

That's happening here too. Thin skinned-ness in this business is dangerous; if you can't take heat from a brother HI, try it in court.

I did many, many years ago, and I'll give you a testimonial.

It's extremely unpleasant, and it's expensive. But, I learned more about how to do the job in that one expensive screwup than I've learned in a couple decades of going to all the dipsquat classes put on by our HI schools and professional society education sessions.

[John Dirks Jr]

Dang..now im tryin to figure out who's the smartest person in the room and I know it aint me. Lotta good competition in here.

I do know this;

Spankin to teach a lesson=good

Personal attacks and condescension=bad

no matter how you slice it.....

[Brian G]

Originally posted by kurt

There is a cheesecloth & metal banded wrapped cellulose that, if one hasn't ever seen the stuff, one might imagine that it could be asbestos.

I'll look for pics.....

I'll be watching for them. It doesn't sound like a difficult distinction to make.

If it isn't covered in any of the classes, especially one's dealing w/hydronic heating systems, I can only have disparaging remarks about the value of the class.

I have yet to lay eyes on a hydronic system either, and I'm working parts of two states. We keep it simple down here. [^]

As far as your specific locale, how hard is it to recognize transite pipe, or asbestos floor tile? Heck, the EPA came right out and stated any 9x9 tile has asbestos content years ago. If you're comfortable knowing what transite & tile look like, what's the problem w/knowing what pipe lagging looks like?

I see the tile and the Transite occasionally, but not the lagging; simple as that. To me the pipe lagging is an alien creature. I know enough to raise a red flag about it, but nothing like enough to be comfortable pronouncing it asbestos with authority.

This is not hard stuff. It's simple. I think really smart folks like yourself still hang onto that thing a little bit about "can't know". I've done it; did it for years.

It's the "don't know" that bothers me, not the "can't know". I don't hesitate to call Transite as asbestos, because I do know.

So as long as we're on the subject of this particular asbestos, clue me in Brother Kurt.

What was it used for besides boilers and steam lines? Where else might I see it someday?

What's the texture of it under that paper jacket? Hard & chalky? Fiberous?

Was all of it made with the same sort of jacket, or did they use other stuff at times?

Is it always white?

Brian G.

Class Is In [:-graduat

[kurt]

Originally posted by Brian G.

Originally posted by kurt

There is a cheesecloth & metal banded wrapped cellulose that, if one hasn't ever seen the stuff, one might imagine that it could be asbestos.

I'll look for pics.....

I'll be watching for them. It doesn't sound like a difficult distinction to make.

If it isn't covered in any of the classes, especially one's dealing w/hydronic heating systems, I can only have disparaging remarks about the value of the class.

I have yet to lay eyes on a hydronic system either, and I'm working parts of two states. We keep it simple down here. [^]

As far as your specific locale, how hard is it to recognize transite pipe, or asbestos floor tile? Heck, the EPA came right out and stated any 9x9 tile has asbestos content years ago. If you're comfortable knowing what transite & tile look like, what's the problem w/knowing what pipe lagging looks like?

I see the tile and the Transite occasionally, but not the lagging; simple as that. To me the pipe lagging is an alien creature. I know enough to raise a red flag about it, but nothing like enough to be comfortable pronouncing it asbestos with authority.

This is not hard stuff. It's simple. I think really smart folks like yourself still hang onto that thing a little bit about "can't know". I've done it; did it for years.

It's the "don't know" that bothers me, not the "can't know". I don't hesitate to call Transite as asbestos, because I do know.

So as long as we're on the subject of this particular asbestos, clue me in Brother Kurt.

What was it used for besides boilers and steam lines? Where else might I see it someday?

What's the texture of it under that paper jacket? Hard & chalky? Fiberous?

Was all of it made with the same sort of jacket, or did they use other stuff at times?

Is it always white?

Brian G.

Class Is In [:-graduat

The reality of asbestos, at least in my world, is it's everywhere.

I've found it in paint, plaster, plaster scratch coat, paper underlayment under the scratch coat, pyroblock fireblocking, packed in walls as firestop, stuffed in electrical panels, around plumbing pipe, packed around old boilers, paper tape on old ductwork and duct boots, paper wrap on octopus furnaces, sprayed on ceilings & walls, popcorn texture on ceilings, and in at least a dozen cases, simply stacked up as junk in attics, crawls, and alleys.

It's always white, although I have no hard reference source other than my observations.

The pipe lagging is the easiest. The pic Steve started this flame fest with is probably as good a pic as I've seen.

It looks like white corrugated cardboard id="size4">wrapped around the pipe, and it's covered w/cheesecloth and secured w/metal banding. The end caps are sometimes "sealed" w/a mix of powdered asbestos packed in place.

[kurt]

Originally posted by SonOfSwamp

[

Yep. I'm sure you'll remember the description from the Nashville roofing consultant of the day he and I sat in a deposition during which an HI sizzled and popped on the defendant grill.

Every now and then the questioning lawyer (the guy on our side) would poke the consultant and me and say, "Did you see the color changes? He goes red, white, red, white."

WJ

Yes, yes..... And, to put a capper on this whole mess of me insulting the entire HI world, you and I have since found out that this particular spaz we are talking about is one of the teachers, yes, that's right, he's one of the teachers @ ITAid="size4">.

That pretty much puts the entire HI school thing in the proper perspective.

Case closed, lights out.......

[msteger]

I would use the phrase "suspected asbestos". I would note that a material found wrapped around some exposed basement plumbing may contain asbestos and to consult a qualified asbestos profession for testing to confirm asbestos content.

I do the same when I see old floor tiles (like in a basement), popcorn ceilings, or asbestos siding. Asbestos detection and testing are outside the ASHI/NAHI SOP.

[ghentjr]

Sorry to jump in late here. This is the way we described asbestos pipe wrap regardless of its condition. I stopped suggesting encapsulation a long time ago because it cost as much as or more than removal and my clients would still have the asbestos.

"There is insulating material which is a type known to contain asbestos. The most common procedure at this time is to have asbestos materials removed by a professional. Removal should not be attempted by unqualified people as improper handling can cause contamination of the entire house. A licensed asbestos abatement company should be consulted as to the cost of removal, proper handling and disposal of the materials. "

But I must admit that I did use the "appears" word in the statement below as it was just easier than describing what I was finding on the basement floors and residual material on pipes.

"It appears that there has been some unprofessional removal of asbestos containing materials. This has probably created a contamination problem that should be addressed as soon as possible. An asbestos abatement company needs to evaluate the house and provide an estimate for cleaning up the residual material. This process can be costly and estimates should be obtained for the work before signing final contracts."