Type K - Laying on the ground

[fqp25]

Is it OK to just lay Type K Copper on the ground for a long span? Shouldn't it be supported above ground like any other pipe, if it's not going to be underground?

This is a new construction, and the Type K runs at least 15 feet like this. And yes, I did notice the missing moisture barrier.

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[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by fqp25

Is it OK to just lay Type K Copper on the ground for a long span? Shouldn't it be supported above ground like any other pipe, if it's not going to be underground?

This is a new construction, and the Type K runs at least 15 feet like this. And yes, I did notice the missing moisture barrier.

IRC P2603.6 Freezing. In localities having a winter design temperature of 32 degrees or lower as shown in Table R301.2(1) of this code, a water, soil or waste pipe shall not be installed outside of a building, in exterior walls, in attics or crawlspaces or in any other place subjected to freezing temperatures unless adequate provision is made to protect it from freezing by insulation or heat or both. Water service pipe shall be installed in less than 12 inches deep and not less than 6 inches below the frost line.

P2604.1 Trenching and bedding. Where trenches are excavated such that the bottom of the trench forms the bed for the pipe, solid and continuous load-bearing support shall be provided between joints. Where over-excavated, the trench shall be backfilled to the proper grade with compacted earth, sand, fine gravel or similar granular material. Piping shall not be supported on rocks or blocks at any point. Rocky or unstable soil shall be over-excavated by two or more pipe diameters and brought to the proper grade with suitable compacted granular material.

- Jim Katen

[kurt]

Does this really matter?

That pipe looks like any other water service I find in a crawlspace.

Why would it matter? Would anyone really hang an opinion on those code sections for this particular piece of pipe?

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by kurt

Does this really matter?

That pipe looks like any other water service I find in a crawlspace.

Why would it matter? Would anyone really hang an opinion on those code sections for this particular piece of pipe?

I'm surprised to hear that you see this frequently. It isn't done out here. The service pipe comes straight up out of the ground and shoots right into the underfloor insulation. Where it passes through air, the pipe is insulated.

Don't you have problems with freezing pipes out there?

Don't crawlspace workers stomp around in hard-shelled knee-pads that could pinch this pipe against a sharp rock and puncture it?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[kurt]

Whole big bunches of shoebox ranch houses built in the inner ring 'burbs are like this. I've never thought it good, but I'd be hard pressed to call it bad. Benign sounds about right. Heck, if that was in my own house, I wouldn't care. I wouldn't even think about it.

It's K copper; that's some pretty hard stuff, no? Industrial settings are usually the place I see it.

Nobodie's knees are going to do anything to K copper, sharp stones or not. Put it on the outside wall, and freezing is certainly possible, but......

As long as the pipe is in the crawlspace, where it looks like it is, and the crawlspace is insulated, conditioned, or otherwise improved as it should be, why would it freeze?

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by kurt

Whole big bunches of shoebox ranch houses built in the inner ring 'burbs are like this. I've never thought it good, but I'd be hard pressed to call it bad. Benign sounds about right. Heck, if that was in my own house, I wouldn't care. I wouldn't even think about it.

It's K copper; that's some pretty hard stuff, no? Industrial settings are usually the place I see it.

Nobodie's knees are going to do anything to K copper, sharp stones or not. Put it on the outside wall, and freezing is certainly possible, but......

As long as the pipe is in the crawlspace, where it looks like it is, and the crawlspace is insulated, conditioned, or otherwise improved as it should be, why would it freeze?

With few exceptions, our crawlspaces aren't insulated, conditioned or otherwise improved. In fact, the underside of the floor is insulated and the crawlspace walls are generally well ventilated. In winter, the crawlspace air is roughly the same temperature as the outdoor air -- perhaps a few degrees warmer. An exposed pipe like this would be at a fair risk of freezing.

Are your crawlspaces different?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[kurt]

Sometimes, sometimes not.

Can't say as I've ever seen one moisture proofed, insulated, or conditioned, or otherwise improved. Ours are as crappy as yours is my guess.

Surprisingly though, water service(s) don't freeze unless they're on outside walls or someone left the crawlspace vents open.

The interior spaces of most crawl's are around thermocline temps; roughly 56degF, if the thing is not ventilated.

[Richard Moore]

Surprisingly though, water service(s) don't freeze unless they're on outside walls or someone left the crawlspace vents open.

Aha...that old "regional difference" thing. We don't close our crawlspace vents in the winter around here. Is that typical winterization in Illinois...does everyone remember to do it...and how?

[kurt]

Most of them are stuck shut. Either that, or there's insulation stuffed in them.

No one remembers; it's a luck of the draw thing. Maybe it freezes, maybe it doesn't, depending on wind direction, length of cold snap, etc.