Need help with fuse panel.

[elwood556]

I found four defects in the panel, in the picture below. I was wondering if you guys can tell me what defects you see. I'm new to Home Inspection and would like your input to see if i didn't miss anything. Also the wires are all 14 gauge copper, and the white wire is one leg of a 240V circuit. Thanks. [:-magnify

[

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by elwood556

I found four defects in the panel, in the picture below. I was wondering if you guys can tell me what defects you see. I'm new to Home Inspection and would like your input to see if i didn't miss anything. Also the wires are all 14 gauge copper, and the white wire is one leg of a 240V circuit. Thanks.

There are five defects in that picture, but I'll bet that there are more than five defects in that panel. Do you have a picture that shows the entire panel?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

(Edited after I saw Fritz's response, cause I missed a defect.)

[homnspector]

Double tap, grounding conductor under a screw head, white insulated on hot, #14 on 20 amp fuse. Thats all I see.

[elwood556]

I got what you found except for the -grounding conductor under a screw head. What is wrong with that? Another dumb newbie question. Thanks.

--Are you saying its a defect because its not connected at a grounding terminal??

[elwood556]

Originally posted by Jim Katen

Originally posted by elwood556

I found four defects in the panel, in the picture below. I was wondering if you guys can tell me what defects you see. I'm new to Home Inspection and would like your input to see if i didn't miss anything. Also the wires are all 14 gauge copper, and the white wire is one leg of a 240V circuit. Thanks.

There are five defects in that picture, but I'll bet that there are more than five defects in that panel. Do you have a picture that shows the entire panel?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

(Edited after I saw Fritz's response, cause I missed a defect.)

Sorry, i didn't take a picture of the entire panel. Any input on what you see in this picture would be helpfull though! Thanks.

[chicago]

Ok ..took me a few minutes but it looks as though besides being double tap the #14"s

are wound around the screw and not behind the bracket.

[John Dirks Jr]

In addition to the other problems listed you have an unmarked white hot. Even though you recognized it as one half of a 240, it still should have a piece of black tape wrapped around the end right before it attaches to the fuse/breaker.

A white can be used as a hot as long as it is marked.

[elwood556]

Originally posted by AHI

In addition to the other problems listed you have an unmarked white hot. Even though you recognized it as one half of a 240, it still should have a piece of black tape wrapped around the end right before it attaches to the fuse/breaker.

A white can be used as a hot as long as it is marked.

Thanks we got that one, anything else though? That might be missed?

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by elwood556

. . . Thanks we got that one, anything else though? That might be missed?

I'm surprised that no one mentioned the lack of safety fuses.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by elwood556

I got what you found except for the -grounding conductor under a screw head. What is wrong with that? Another dumb newbie question. Thanks.

--Are you saying its a defect because its not connected at a grounding terminal??

He's taking about the grounding wire that terminates on the panel-mounting screw that's in shadow behind the white wire. That's a no-no.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[hausdok]

Hi Jim,

If you're referring to S-type fuses, I've never seen that particular brand of fuse, but I'd thought that those were S-type fuses.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by hausdok

Hi Jim,

If you're referring to S-type fuses, I've never seen that particular brand of fuse, but I'd thought that those were S-type fuses.

OT - OF!!!

M.

If they are, then they've inserted the wrong adapter.

With #14 wires on those circuits, there's supposed to be a 15-amp fuse protecting each one. If the proper safety adapter were there, those 20-amp fuses couldn't have been inserted into those fuse holders.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Brian G]

Those aren't S types. You can clearly see the TD-20 catalog number on them. Type T, time delayed.

Brian G.

Fused To a T, Was It? [:-tong2]

[chicago]

Hang on a minute. Which came first the chicken or the egg?

Perhaps the fuses are fine but the wire is wrong.lol

[StevenT]

If the white wire is one leg of a 240 circuit, isn't that the same as a 240 circuit in breakers not tied together?

How do you handle that in a fuse box?

[elwood556]

Originally posted by Jim Katen

Originally posted by elwood556

I got what you found except for the -grounding conductor under a screw head. What is wrong with that? Another dumb newbie question. Thanks.

--Are you saying its a defect because its not connected at a grounding terminal??

He's taking about the grounding wire that terminates on the panel-mounting screw that's in shadow behind the white wire. That's a no-no.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Why is it a no-no? What would an implication be?

[John Dirks Jr]

I think a ground wire is more secure when it is properly attached to a grounding bus bar. Gotta draw a line somewhere right?

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by StevenT

If the white wire is one leg of a 240 circuit, isn't that the same as a 240 circuit in breakers not tied together?

How do you handle that in a fuse box?

You have separate fuses. Generally in the age of fuses there was no such thing as simultaneous trips.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by elwood556

Originally posted by Jim KatenHe's taking about the grounding wire that terminates on the panel-mounting screw that's in shadow behind the white wire. That's a no-no.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Why is it a no-no? What would an implication be?

Well, for starters it violates 250.8:

250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment. Grounding conductors and bonding jumpers shall be connected by exothermic welding, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps, or other listed means. Connection devices or fittings that depend solely on solder shall not be used. Sheet metal screws shall not be used to connect grounding conductors or connection devices to enclosures.

An implication might be that you'd get a lousy grounding connection.

If that screw is one of the panel mounting screws, another implication might be that, in order to loosen that grounding connection, you've got to loosen the mounting screw.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[elwood556]

Originally posted by Jim Katen

Originally posted by elwood556

. . . Thanks we got that one, anything else though? That might be missed?

I'm surprised that no one mentioned the lack of safety fuses.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

They do sell time delayed safety fuses if needed.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by elwood556

Originally posted by Jim Katen

Originally posted by elwood556

. . . Thanks we got that one, anything else though? That might be missed?

I'm surprised that no one mentioned the lack of safety fuses.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

They do sell time delayed safety fuses if needed.

Sure, but those aren't them.

You asked me to point out defects in the picture. The moment that someone put a 20-amp fuse on that 14-gauge-wire circuit, it required a safety fuse. Since that's not a safety fuse, it's a defect.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[elwood556]

Originally posted by Jim Katen

Originally posted by elwood556

Originally posted by Jim Katen

Originally posted by elwood556

. . . Thanks we got that one, anything else though? That might be missed?

I'm surprised that no one mentioned the lack of safety fuses.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

They do sell time delayed safety fuses if needed.

Sure, but those aren't them.

You asked me to point out defects in the picture. The moment that someone put a 20-amp fuse on that 14-gauge-wire circuit, it required a safety fuse. Since that's not a safety fuse, it's a defect.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

So if there was a 20 amp safety fuse it would be alright?? I don't understand. Shouldn't it be 15 A fuse. Maybe i'm getting my fuses messed up here.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by elwood556

So if there was a 20 amp safety fuse it would be alright?? I don't understand. Shouldn't it be 15 A fuse. Maybe i'm getting my fuses messed up here.

It should be a 15-amp safety fuse.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[homnspector]

Elwood556, I think what you are asking is "what is a safety fuse". An s fuse has a smaller base. There is a non-removable adapter (screws in, but not out) that should be installed in the fuse socket so you can ONLY screw in a 15 amp safety fuse for that circuit. Jim will correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think there is a safety fuse over 15 amps, as it would defeat the purpose of preventing over-fusing.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by homnspector

Elwood556, I think what you are asking is "what is a safety fuse". An s fuse has a smaller base. There is a non-removable adapter (screws in, but not out) that should be installed in the fuse socket so you can ONLY screw in a 15 amp safety fuse for that circuit. Jim will correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think there is a safety fuse over 15 amps, as it would defeat the purpose of preventing over-fusing.

Actually, there are 0-15 amp, 16-20 amp and 21-30 amp versions. Each will only work in the matching fuse holder/adapter. The adaptors won't accept regular fuses.

- Jim Katen, Oregon