Piercing saddle valves

[Chris Bernhardt]

Are piercing saddle valves prohibited anywhere? I thought they were. I see them a lot on kitchen sink supply lines feeding fridges but I believe installing them on a branch supply line say in the crawlspace is prohibited.

Chris, Oregon

[kurt]

I prohibit them from my little universe. I hate 'em.

[ozofprev]

I'm just slightly more tolerant. The little guys are on every humidifier I find.

If you really hate them, you can always point to IPC 605.9 and 707.1...

[chicago]

Yes in some areas the are prohibited and you should never use them on copper.

I more than likely installed hundreds of them.

Off story I know of one guy who actually tapped into a gas line then ran the thing to the ice maker.

In general though they end up leaking or clogged when used with their intended victim, the galvanized pipe.

[ozofprev]

???They are meant to be used on copper, no???

http://www.keidel.com/mech/pvf/valve-saddle.htm

Originally posted by chicago

Yes in some areas the are prohibited and you should never use them on copper.

I more than likely installed hundreds of them.

Off story I know of one guy who actually tapped into a gas line then ran the thing to the ice maker.

In general though they end up leaking or clogged when used with their intended victim, the galvanized pipe.

[Bob White]

House I did a couple months ago had the humidifier tapped with a saddle valve to the TPR discharge line.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Chris Bernhardt

Are piercing saddle valves prohibited anywhere? I thought they were. I see them a lot on kitchen sink supply lines feeding fridges but I believe installing them on a branch supply line say in the crawlspace is prohibited.

Chris, Oregon

Saddle valves are prohibited as drainage fittings. (P2611.1)

I can't find any reference against using them on distribution lines.

Valves have to be accessible. (Not "readily accessible") Crawlspaces are accessible. (P2905.6)

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[ozofprev]

Jim,

See Chapter 6 (Water supply and distribution) of the IPC

605.9

Prohibited joints and connections. The following types of joints and connections shall be prohibited:

1. Cement or concrete joints.

2. Joints made with fittings not approved for the specific installation.

3. Solvent-cement joints between different types of plastic pipe.

4. Saddle-type fittings.

[chicago]

Originally posted by ozofprev

???They are meant to be used on copper, no???

http://www.keidel.com/mech/pvf/valve-saddle.htm

Quote: Originally posted by chicago

Yes in some areas the are prohibited and you should never use them on copper.

I more than likely installed hundreds of them.

Off story I know of one guy who actually tapped into a gas line then ran the thing to the ice maker.

In general though they end up leaking or clogged when used with their intended victim, the galvanized pipe.

Hi Gary..the reason for why they are not to good on copper is the copper's an soft metal that warps out of shape easily.

When you install one you have a tendency to crank the screws hard and with uneven pressure.Plus those self tapping bits often break off,the gaskets leak after a while too.

All I can say is the vinyl dryer vents are sold and installed too.Just not a good idea.

[ozofprev]

Now I see what you mean, Bob.

Thanks.

[StevenT]

I have only seen them installed on copper.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by ozofprev

Jim,

See Chapter 6 (Water supply and distribution) of the IPC

605.9

Prohibited joints and connections. The following types of joints and connections shall be prohibited:

1. Cement or concrete joints.

2. Joints made with fittings not approved for the specific installation.

3. Solvent-cement joints between different types of plastic pipe.

4. Saddle-type fittings.

Is there a corollary in the IRC?

The Oregon Residential Code is based on the IRC except for the plumbing section, which is based on the UPC. Under "water supply and distribution" there's a section headed "Joints & Connections" but it lacks a prohibition against saddle valves. That seems odd since, in general, the UPC is more stringent than the IPC.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Tom Corrigan]

Nope.

Only relative to DWV connections.

Does 605.9 really apply to pressure pipe?

Tom Corrigan

[chicago]

They actualy have a galvinized pipe version where you drill the hole .

It does work better,but that kind of pipe is slowly going into the sunset.Guess I can throw those out.

My big point is they do make 1/4inch shutoffs.These are threaded and easily and screwed on with proper compression rings for the copper tubing feed.

[NewInspector]

I'd recommend a compression tee valve replace the saddle. Performs the same function & is code compliant.

[ozofprev]

Originally posted by Tom Corrigan

Does 605.9 really apply to pressure pipe?

Tom Corrigan

The Chapter title is: Water Supply and Distribution

[Tom Corrigan]

Gary,

At the risk of sounding like a smart ass, the section is 605.10 and it does not apply to detached 1-2 family, detached.... etc. (see the exception under 101.2)

Tom Corrigan

[ozofprev]

Hi Tom,

I have read enough of your posts to know you aren't a smart ass. We are here to learn, and sometimes that means you say something dumb. I have no problem with that here. It makes me smarter in the field.

I believe we are looking at different versions of the IPC. I have the 2006 copy and the section I posted is 605.9, but.... I had not seen that disclaimer in the front. That section number has not changed, and you have helped me, friend. [^]

I am pleased to owe you a beer if we have a TIJ get2gether. That's a cheap education, thanks!

Originally posted by Tom Corrigan

Gary,

At the risk of sounding like a smart ass, the section is 605.10 and it does not apply to detached 1-2 family, detached.... etc. (see the exception under 101.2)

Tom Corrigan

[Tom Corrigan]

Gary,

Thanks for the kind words.

NY uses a modified version of the 2000 I Codes. We are not presently using the 2006 version. This is expected to come this summer. Check the ICBO site for a copy of the I Codes that include NYS modifications.

Tom Corrigan

[ozofprev]

Tom,

That raises a good question (I hope). It is my thinking - wrong as it may be - that the latest versions of ICC books are 'better' than older versions; at least in general.

I know you are right about the version NY uses, but since we aren't code enforcement officers, shouldn't we just use the latest versions?

Since nobody respects my authoritie (Cartman joke) anyway, I just reference the latest editions and make note of any MRCR's that NY has.

Am I crazy as a loon?

[Tom Corrigan]

Gary,

It would be better to refer to the standard that applies. That's defensible. Picking one on your own isn't.

Tom C.

[Bob White]

Georgia amended the 2000 IPC and has amended the now applicable 2006 IPC with

*Revise Section 605.9 ‘Prohibited joints and connections’ to add exception to Item #4 ‘Saddle-type fittings’ as follows:

605.9 Prohibited joints and connections.

4. Saddle-type fittings.

Exception: Saddle-type fittings can be used to connect refrigerator ice makers to an existing residential unit water distribution system provided the manufacturer’s installation instructions for the distribution piping do not prohibit the use of saddle fittings. Saddle fittings can be used to install thermal expansion tanks to an existing residential unit water distribution system if approved by the manufacturer of the tank.

(Effective January 1, 2007)

it's not OK to have them in the newly constructed house, but it's plenty fine to add them yourself the day you move in, I guess....[:-crazy]

[Jim Baird]

Our state deletes plumbing and electric sections of IRC and substitutes IPC and NEC.

[Mark P]

When I see them on galvanized pipe I let customers know the hole will seal shut with rust, if it has not already.

[Les]

Mark P, you are much better looking in person!