ASHI candidate membership

[Chris Bernhardt]

Can someone explain what membership benefits are availible as a candidate?

Its not clear on the ASHI website. At least not to me.

Chris, Oregon

[Jesse]

6 years. Why are you still a candidate? It's honest curiosity, not an attack.

[Scottpat]

Can someone explain what membership benefits are availible as a candidate?

Its not clear on the ASHI website. At least not to me.

Chris, Oregon

Let me see if I can help;

First the membership name has changed to Associate, this changed a few months back. Over the next year the name will be changed on the website and printed materials.

As an ASHI Associate, an individual has access to the ASHI website discussion board and various discounts and membership benefits. This includes an issue to the ASHI Reporter Magazine. They are not listed on the ASHI Search nor can they advertise that they belong to ASHI. They can not vote on issues in the Society. This is the entry level for ASHI.

Next a person would move up to Associate with Logo use. At this level a person can use the logo for this level. They are added to the National home inspector search feature. To attain this level a person needs to have passed the NHIE, the ASHI Standards and Ethics Exam, had their reports verified that they are in compliance to the ASHI Standards and completed 50 Inspections.

Chris with your qualifications you can easily pass the qualifications for membership and the Certified ASHI Inspector.

Hope this helps,

Scott Patterson

ASHI National Membership Chair.

[Chris Bernhardt]

I sent in my application today. It is one of my 2007 goals to become a full member before the end of the year and join up with the local chapter here.

Chris, Oregon

[fqp25]

Chris,

You should wait until May 2. The fourth quarter starts then, and the payment is only $153.75 ($73.75 + $80 application fee). Before then, it is $227.50.

I am planning on joining up then.

Wait 2 weeks save some ca$h, why not?

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Chris Bernhardt

I sent in my application today. It is one of my 2007 goals to become a full member before the end of the year and join up with the local chapter here.

Chris, Oregon

Fourth Tuesday of every month at Buster's Bar-b-que in Tigard. It's on 99W just west of I-5. Get there about 6:00, buy your dinner and head for the back room. The formal meeting starts at 6:30 and usually ends about 8:30 or 9. This Tuesday's speaker is Jeff Doerner with Environmental Data Resources. He's going to speak about "Past uses of land and areas of concern." (No, I have no idea what the hell that means.)

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[ozofprev]

Let me see if I can help;

First the membership name has changed to Associate, this changed a few months back. Over the next year the name will be changed on the website and printed materials.

And that's the sort of real action you can come to expect.

As an ASHI Associate, an individual has access to the ASHI website discussion board and various discounts and membership benefits. This includes an issue to the ASHI Reporter Magazine. They are not listed on the ASHI Search nor can they advertise that they belong to ASHI. They can not vote on issues in the Society. This is the entry level for ASHI.

That's a "subscription to", (not issue to)

ASHI associates certainly are listed in the ASHI search. Info above is just wrong. I made arrangements to have my name removed from the list. Why wouldn't a potential client just choose a 'real' member from the list??? I would.

True, you can't vote.

Next a person would move up to Associate with Logo use. At this level a person can use the logo for this level. They are added to the National home inspector search feature. To attain this level a person needs to have passed the NHIE, the ASHI Standards and Ethics Exam, had their reports verified that they are in compliance to the ASHI Standards and completed 50 Inspections.

Note: The logo at this level is NOT the ASHI logo 'real' members use.

Chris with your qualifications you can easily pass the qualifications for membership and the Affiliate level.

Affiliate level???

Hope this helps,

Scott Patterson

ASHI National Membership Chair.

[Scottpat]

Hi Gary,

Once again, thank you for pointing out my errors. It was a hectic and busy day. If I didn't know any better I could swear that you are competing for WJ's spot.

Sorry for putting Associate, it should be Certified ASHI Inspector.

As for the Associate showing up on a search, Yes they will show up if no other ASHI members are in the area. This is how the search described on the ASHI site;

Listed below are up to 25 ASHI Inspectors who provide inspection services closest to the Zip Code you entered. The list may also include ASHI Candidates, who are working their way toward meeting ASHI's requirements.

This was changed back in early 2006. To allow the Associates to show up if no other ASHI members were in the area.

[Chad Fabry]

I have yet to have a client that has heard of any of the associations. I ask every one.

I take that back. I had one client who read an article on what to ask a home inspector.

question #1 How much?

question #2 Do you have insurance?

question #3 Do you belong to NASA?

Answers in order: A lot

liability and only because NYS law requires it.

Ma'am, home inspecting is not rocket science

[hausdok]

The list may also include ASHI Candidates, who are working their way toward meeting ASHI's requirements.

Jeez, Scott!

I'd heard that ASHI was finally working on changing their system and that the stigma of "candidate" attached to those new inspectors was soon going to be eliminated. It doesn't sound like it. Please don't take offense, but why not just take a hot branding iron and burn "not yet competent" into the forehead of every candidate, 'cuz that's what the uninitiated homebuyer is going to infer from that statement?

How is that fair to the candidate (associate)? That's truly lame. Those men and women form the bulk of ASHI's membership, don't they? If it weren't for the large number of candidates (associates) that ASHI has, ASHI probably wouldn't be able to pay it's bills - especially after taking out a $1,000,000 mortgage on the building just to help fund the branding debacle - so it seems, at least to me, like those candidates (associates) oughta get more respect.

I would have thought that ASHI has learned by now that it's in a down and dirty street fight for its survival and that trying to give it's members who've been in the business longer a leg up, competition wise, over it's newer members is akin to biting off one's nose to spite one's face.

It's obvious where the "associate" and "member" distinctions derived from. Somewhere back in the day when ASHI was the only kid on the block worth joining, the guys who'd been in the business longer wanted a way to distinguish themselves from the new guys. They felt that since they'd been in the business longer and had literally and figuratively "paid their dues" that they were entitled to a means to say to people, "Looky here, I'm more experienced than this new guy, so hire me!" It made perfect sense - if you were one of the old timers and not one of the new guys - and the new guys were powerless to do anything about it, because they had (have) no voting rights and ASHI was the only game in the house.

Well, that day is gone, Man! Look around ASHI old guys! NACHI has come in and empowered even the most inexperienced and incompetent inspector with the title "certified," and by placing that statement on your search engine, you've said to the first time homebuyer, who's out there unknowingly looking for a competent inspector that is "bonded and certified," that the folks at your associate (candidate) level aren't quite up to par yet. Put yourself in new home buyer's shoes and ask yourself whether you'd hire someone who was "working their way to way toward meeting ASHI's requirements," or would hire someone who is allegedly certified and is a full member of another association?

By now, ASHI should have realized that its oldest members are no longer competing with its newest members - they're competing with a perception out there on the block that those members of another association are somehow "certified" while ASHI members are not. I'll give them credit for partly realizing that by allowing their new guys the use of the term "certified ASHI inspector" but to still subtly mark them as incompetent, by sticking that comment next to the search results in your own search engine? That's idiotic!

When is the ASHI leadership going to pull its head out of its ass? Hell, if you're not going to give those new guys the right to make decisions about that kind of thing, at least realize that, compared to the number of relatively new and inexperienced "certified" inspectors who are paying Mr. Gromicko and his public relations firm to make them appear like they are something they are not - ASHI's new guys are a drop in the bucket. They are no longer the ones that your long established membership is primarily competing with. You guys should remove that boneheaded comment, stop trying to distinguish yourselves from one another within your own association and start acting as one cohesive unit.

Mercy! And to think people ask me every day why I'm not a "member" of any so-called "professional" associations.

Why would I want to be?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Scottpat]

I have yet to have a client that has heard of any of the associations. I ask every one.

I take that back. I had one client who read an article on what to ask a home inspector.

question #1 How much?

question #2 Do you have insurance?

question #3 Do you belong to NASA?

Answers in order: A lot

liability and only because NYS law requires it.

Ma'am, home inspecting is not rocket science

Yep, that is what I have found as well. I think it really depends on the area you live and work in.

If you are joining an association to increase your business or to make you a better inspector, I think these are the wrong reasons to join. I can honestly say that I have received a good deal of business from being affiliated with my Society. These are mostly personal referrals from other inspectors across the country, that I have met through various professional events.

[Chris Bernhardt]

And I thought we weren't suppose to talk politics. []

For the guys out there trying to decide if they should join an association or not I was well aware of the debate.

If Mike O created some new association I would be first in line. But its because of Mikes great creation that I chose to step further up to join up with some of the great local inspectors in my area.

I could have and would have chose any other association except that I am already familiar with some of the ASHI HI's out here.

I would say that maybe once or twice a year in the past I would get a client who ask if I belonged to any inspection associations. They never asked if I was a member of any specific one as far as I can remember. The have asked if I was ICC qualifed and I have lost a few over that.

I want to repeat what I said about finally deciding after 8 years to join a local association after operating in a bubble for so long has to do with TIJ and the great contributors here. The professionalism of my business has increase greatly in the short time I have been a member of TIJ. I have seen my call backs for missed items drop off the radar screen and call backs for dumbass report writing evaporate.

Chris, Oregon

[Les]

Mike, with all due respect for your opinion regarding ASHI,

I, along with several other members of this forum, have struggled with this issue of different levels of membership in ASHI. With that experience I must tell you that some of the "facts" in your written response are not correct. ASHI bashing is nearly as much fun as NACHI bashing. The difference is just plain ole quality. Your membership in any association does not indicate wheather you are a good inspector nor not.

THIS IS JUST MY PERSONAL OPINION: On days like today, I get a little tired of hearing about how us old guys have the wrong idea and somehow just because we have been around a few decades and done a few thousand inspections, and dedicated thousands of hours to the inspection business, and blazed more than one trail for the newer guys, maintained an impecable training record as well as certifications, that we have it all wrong! I can't remember how many other inspectors I have personally helped get started and can't remember how much I have learned from them. I ain't the smartest, nor best, inspector - but I have always tried my best to be helpful and I have NEVER been fearful of a person just getting started.

When I am in the witness chair, I am very proud to be an ASHI member and the judge and jury always seem to "understand". Just be active in any association and continue to learn everyday.

[Scottpat]

Jeez Mike!

Would it be better to say nothing? If it was done this way, a person who is a Hair Stylist today could be listed as a home inspector on the search next to a person with years of experience. Seems like this is what everyone has been complaining about over at Nicks club.

Truth be known you can't make everyone happy and be everything to everyone. We have no perfect professional home inspector organization.

As Les said, many of your facts are wrong. One is that ASHI paid off the loan on their building and did not mortgage it to pay for the branding debacle. That funding came from reserves and the increase in dues.

[hausdok]

Hi Les and Scott,

You both miss my point. My point isn't about experience. It's about giving your own ASHI guys respect for choosing to join ASHI over another association. Obviously, the intent of that statement is to tell folks that the candidates (associates) aren't as experienced (and by implication, as competent) as the "members" of ASHI - but, by including that statement, you set your own team up for failure and this is what has driven people to join the other teams. That's what I'm trying to say.

I know I haven't been in this game as long as you two, but 11 years is something, so I'm not totally ignorant of the arguments that have been batted around between ASHI guys for years. While I certainly agree that I'd always prefer to see a home buyer hire the experienced guy over the inexperienced guy, I think that folks who're members of the same association should insist that, insofar as the association (the team) is concerned, everyone is on the same team and should be treated equally by the association.

Certainly, all members of any association have the right to individually advertise themselves and do whatever they need to, in order to try and set themselves apart from those they compete with - even fellow within the same organization - but I think it's just plain wrong for an association to display preference for one level of member over another. Once an association accepts and cashes an inspector's check, and begins to benefit from that inspector's revenue, that inspector should have the same privileges as anyone else and should garner the same respect in anything that association displays on its public face - website, advertising, media press releases, etc.. If they want to have ranks within the association, that are based on time in the profession and number of inspections and that sort of thing, fine, but that should be an internal issue that has nothing to do with the organization's public face. Let individual inspectors compete however they will out in the market, but don't aid and abet discrimination within the association, by setting one group up for failure.

The organization is a team. When it's competing for market share of a limited number of inspectors in this country and Canada, it needs to compete as a team - not as distinctly different groups that pay dues to one association but only one of the groups has any real power or rights.

Scott, you say, "A person who is a Hair Stylist today could be listed as a home inspector on the search next to a person with years of experience." I understand that, but you've (ASHI) created that issue yourselves. First ASHI says, "Come join our association - we're the oldest and the best," while at the same time it doesn't have any sort of entry control. It willingly accepts the money of those who are already making a living at home inspections, and allows them to join without requiring them to show that they actually have the training and skills that they tell their clients they have. Then, they brand them as possibly being incompetent by placing that statement on the organizations search engine.

Think about it, all ASHI needed to do to compete with NACHI was to place some sort of a test for entry into place - one that was harder than NACHI's and considered credible - and then to have given all of its members equal respect and the right to advertise their affiliation, regardless of how long they've been in the business or how many jobs they'd done. Because they are the oldest in the business and considered the most credible, inspectors would have flocked to ASHI's ranks.

Would that have pissed off those ASHI members who've been around for years? Sure, but they should be competing on the street using their own marketing skills, experienced and training, not gaining unfair advantage over their own teammates, by virtue of their association's condescending language on the very site that all of their membership dollars pay for.

Try to step out of the box and look at it from an outsider's point of view. That's not teamwork. That's not what an association of brothers is supposed to be about, and that's why ASHI's membership numbers are no longer the largest in the profession. Folks over there have got themselves so wrapped around the axle with trying to make sure that the newfs in their own organization are held at some sort of competitive disadvantage, that they can't see that maintaining this archaic status system within their own organization is hurting them.

It's a shame really, because it could be so easily fixed.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[allspec33351]

I agree with Scott.

I do not want to be associated with inspectors that can't inspect, inspectors whose client is the Realtor, inspectors who don't adhere to the SOP, and that's why I left ASHI.

Captain

[Les]

I agree with you Mike. Because ASHI is the oldest and best, change is difficult.

[hausdok]

Aw com'on, Mitchell,

Let's try to keep it a reasonable adult discussion and not turn it into a bash fest. I think we should be able to discuss this kind of thing reaonably without flaming each other. No?

Les, is change difficult because it's the oldest and best, or because it's got a lethargic and swollen board of directors in place, and a voting and quorom system that isn't conducive to change and doesn't enable it to make rapid decisions and adapt and change quickly with the times?

OT - OF!!!

M.

[ozofprev]

Originally posted by Scottpat

Hi Gary,

Once again, thank you for pointing out my errors. It was a hectic and busy day. If I didn't know any better I could swear that you are competing for WJ's spot.

I'm not qualified to fill WJ's spot, but I have learned from him and others to filter out things that are just wrong. I work to improve information accuracy, not people. Being accurate is something I strive for in my work.

Sorry for putting Associate, it should be Certified ASHI Inspector.

As for the Associate showing up on a search, Yes they will show up if no other ASHI members are in the area. This is how the search described on the ASHI site;

Listed below are up to 25 ASHI Inspectors who provide inspection services closest to the Zip Code you entered. The list may also include ASHI Candidates, who are working their way toward meeting ASHI's requirements.

This was changed back in early 2006. To allow the Associates to show up if no other ASHI members were in the area.

Right, which is why I was surprised you said Associates don't show up on searches. I cannot find one zip code in NY that doesn't show associates.

[ozofprev]

Mike,

I don't know or care about financials. The mortgage issue, from my perspective, is moot. I care about professionalism. That is the sole reason I belong to ASHI and not the other one.

Scott wrote that "many" of your facts are wrong. Aside from the mortgage thing(?), I believe your facts are dead ON.

Ya gotta love Les. I'm serious - I think he is one cool dude, but several long time ASHI types are his polar opposite. Les helps people get started in this business, he is ethical, and does not have an ego problem. I have bumped into other long time ASHI types who I wish were like Les.

Report verification is a step toward ASHI membership. When WJ started out long ago, his verifier took time to talk, to teach, to help WJ become a better report writer (hard to believe now, huh?)

I spend hours writing my reports. I use a past ASHI president's software to create reports. I figured I couldn't miss at verification time. Well, my verifier failed me because of issues such as; failure to comment on countertops (which were fine), and failure to report location of electric shut off. I called Mr. Verifier to discuss the reports.

Hello Mr. Verifier, what happened? "You didn't report the location of the electric shutoff!" I told him that the location is in every report. He said show me. I gave him page numbers for each report. "Oh, wow, it's not like me to miss things like that." Then he starts quizzing me - "What's a ground?" I said it is an electric path to earth. He said, "Beeeeep, you fail." I said, what? He said, a ground is electrolytes! No current will flow to ground without electrolyes! I told him that I understood full well that deionized water will not conduct electricity, and that I have taken graduate courses in chemistry. He continued to quiz me, and finally said, "You are a good inspector. Just change the couple of words I mentioned, send me more reports and you will be just fine. Ok, fella?"

Unfortunately, I dance to my own drummer (Yes, it is my hairshirt). I thought, why should I send more money to ASHI for the reverification process? I have seen the reports of other full ASHI members. Mine are every bit as good. There is a person on this forum who uses the same software I use. He posts an example report on his website. That report would have failed under my verifier. A past ASHI vice-president has told me, "Shhhh, don't tell anyone, but my reports wouldn't pass today either. I'm so glad I'm past that." I am not going to send ASHI more money for reverification, which likely means I'll never be a full member. Fine. I have my ethics, and I just won't play games like that.

Captain says he does not want to be associated with lousy inspectors. I am in complete agreement with him.

I have pounded ASHI to just think about the following proposal.

------------Proposal-----------------------------

To attain the coveted ASHI Certified Inspector credential, our members meet the highest standards in the industry by:

Passing a proctored, national exam.

Passing an ethics exam.

Demonstrating professional reporting skills.

In addition, members must satisfy one of the following:

1. Proven completion of at least 250 home inspections.

2. A Baccalaureate in Architecture, Building Science, or Civil/Mechanical engineering with an overall GPA of at least 2.75 on a 4 point scale plus a minimum of 50 home inspections.

3. Member has worked a minimum of three years as a licensed GC, satisfactorily proven ethical and financial professionalism, and has performed a minimum of 75 home inspections. As a GC, the member must have been the primary contractor for x number of residential structures each of the three years.

How does this dilute current requirements?

---------END of Proposal--------------------------

That proposal has been sent now to two ASHI presidents. Neither has responded. Not the one a year ago. Not the one a month ago. A year ago, Scott told me that getting any change through ASHI is like changing the US Constitution. That was, in fact, my first sign of what was to come.

Suggest any change you believe is an improvement, and you would think you just told the many ASHI directors, "Your mama's a ho."

I have recommended TIJA (pronounce tee-ha). Whatchathink????

Originally posted by hausdok

Aw com'on, Mitchell,

Let's try to keep it a reasonable adult discussion and not turn it into a bash fest. I think we should be able to discuss this kind of thing reaonably without flaming each other. No?

Les, is change difficult because it's the oldest and best, or because it's got a lethargic and swollen board of directors in place, and a voting and quorom system that isn't conducive to change and doesn't enable it to make rapid decisions and adapt and change quickly with the times?

OT - OF!!!

M.

[kurt]

I think TIJA is a fine idea.

The model ASHI has embraced simply isn't sustainable.

[Scottpat]

Hi all,

I don't make the rules at ASHI, in fact I have no desire to serve on the board or be an officer. I do my part with the committees that I have worked with over the years and for the most, I have enjoyed it. Met some great folks and made some lasting friendships.

My goal is to help others, and that is difficult to do at times within any organization that is as diverse as ASHI. Home Inspectors as a whole are very opinionated and think that their way is the only way, they will argue the proper orientation of a screw on a face plate. Trying to please everyone is just about impossible I have found, so you strive to work around that off center line and please the majority.

As for an "Elite" organization of experienced and qualified inspectors, I don't think one exist. Who would set the bar and to what height? Then over time the old timers in that organization would want to increase that bar to another level, then you have the tiered levels once again and the cycle starts to repeat.

Gary, when I said that change is difficult I was being truthful. Ask Kurt or any other ASHI member who has been around. A change to the bylaws has to be voted on by the membership and pass with a 2/3 majority.

As for your requirements, I think that they are fine and would entice some to join that might not have before. With your reports that did not pass the verification process, we have started an appeal or review process. This does not cost anything. It is done through a sub-committee of the Membership Committee. Les, is part of it in fact. Contact me offline if you are still having problems and we should be able to help you.

..........

As for ASHI losing members. Every year about 2/3 of those who joined the year before do not renew. The number one reason for not renewing is that they got out of the business. This has not changed for the past ten or so years. The largest loss as everyone knows was back in 2003-04 with the branding debacle. The year that it was over the numbers went back up.

[allspec33351]

Mike

I was not bashing I was just expressing how I feel. There are a lot of great inspectors that belong to ASHI and a lot of inspectors in ASHI that I do not wish to be associated.

I have certain ethical beliefs that sometimes clouds my otherwise good logic.

I guess it is the same reason I don't belong to any political party and haven't voted in 35 years.

Captain

If you are not a little whacked you not a good home inspector.

[ozofprev]

Gary, when I said that change is difficult I was being truthful. Ask Kurt or any other ASHI member who has been around. A change to the bylaws has to be voted on by the membership and pass with a 2/3 majority.

Scott, you're a nice guy. I'm not picking on you at random. But, as the ASHI Membership Committee Chairman ,you were the one to which the ASHI Reporter said to send comments regarding membership levels. This was your response:

Scott wrote:

Hi Gary,

Thank you for your suggestions. You have presented some interesting ideas, but unfortunately these suggestions would require some major bylaws changes. I don't know how long you have been involved in ASHI, but changes to the bylaws are akin to making amendments to the US Constitution. It's just not real easy to get that 2/3 vote from the membership. I'm not saying that it is not possible, it just takes time, patience, good timing, and a little politicking. I will keep this in my file for our next membership committee meeting.

I have also included Anthony Snyder in this reply, just so he can be informed of these ideas.

Thank you,

Scott Patterson

ASHI Membership Committee Chairman

That was not the positive professional response anyone should expect from a professional society. You cannot say that you have never been a part of the 'embrace stagnation' leadership.

As for your requirements, I think that they are fine and would entice some to join that might not have before. With your reports that did not pass the verification process, we have started an appeal or review process. This does not cost anything. It is done through a sub-committee of the Membership Committee. Les, is part of it in fact. Contact me offline if you are still having problems and we should be able to help you.

Now, you think they're fine? What changed your mind?

[hausdok]

Hi Mitchell,

No harm, no foul. I can sympathize, but I think you can say the same thing about most of the organizations. Until we inspectors really sit down and examine this profession of ours and decide on a common direction, things aren't going to change, I'm afraid. ASHI certainly isn't the only organization who's philosophy I disagree with. Hell, if we picked an organization a day, I think we could go on for at least a week critiquing all of the national organizations and still not be talked out and still not find a lot of common ground.

It would make for good jabberwockin' but one thing's for sure - it's not liable to change anyone's mind in any of these organizations. They seem to thrive on controversy. I was just trying to keep things on an even keel and friendly.

TIJA ?!! - Yee Ha!

M.