FEDERAL PACIFIC

[charlieb]

" All you Chicagoland folks: Oak Park now allows Romex, "but only if it's new." Do you know of any other suburbs that allow NMC?

I, for now, still see a bunch of Romex as Kurt does: foreign, and a little silly. Some day, I'll grow up. Maybe."

Why would you want to use old NMC?

[chicago]

So if Chicago passes a law allowing this NMC or extension cord on steroids, just how much money is a poor family going to save on their $400,000 house. Of course if a law was passed allowing this stuff nobody in town would run out to Home Depot and start installing it on their own would they. No not in Chicago where we all obey the law. One thing I have learned from those in local 134 is that conduit will help contain a fire. Please if I have been given disinformation somebody inform me. Personally I feel the last thing we need to do is to encourage DIY of electricity.

[PAbernathy]

Ahh...so Chicago ( Bob E ) are you saying all homes done in NMC is well..cheap...I have you know that is so not true......in fact what protection does EMT afford you in a FAULT condition....and well if NMC is installed properly why would you consider it unsafe....the conductors inside the NMC are similar to THHN/THWN in reality.

So is Chicago so special that people will RUN to home depot and start doing their own wiring so much so that...hello....most all states observe NMC as a wiring method and perfectly fine and legal......the ONLY reason Chicago does not like NMC is because of the Unions....plain and simple....

Now....are you saying their are NO fires in Chicago....faulty receptacles, switches, lights and so on......Arc Faults will go along way to protection with NMC and is not required on bedrooms and soon ALL 15 and 20 A 125V circuits.....so does that change your view on it?

I installed Rigid and EMT for years in Charlottesville, VA when me and my brother started out and I have done my share of NMC as well....and some AC cable and MC Cable along the way.....but if NMC is installed properly and a proper OCPD is installed...and adding the bonus of AFCI in the future......nothing unsafe about NMC.

I would venture to say....running everything in conduit makes OTHER trade less aware of their surroundings and quite frankly complacent...with NMC it has to be installed properly and a DIYer will do what they want in ANY state.......since lets face it...Chicago or Illinois or that fact has no STATE WIDE licensing of electricians anyway.......NOW that to me is way more of a risk than using NMC....they need to focus on getting the electrical trade OUT of the unions and into the state licensing boards hands to start to see a difference.

[PAbernathy]

P.S. How much time would you save using NMC versus EMT in a $ 400,000 dwelling...oh about 2 weeks of labor and probably an additional $ 3,000-$8,000 in material costs...if not more.

How....well NMC 14-2 is about $ 80-90 a 250' roll.........now factor in the labor to run conduit, buy the THHN in 500' spools, labor to pull it.....time..time..time......we can rough in a $ 400,000 house in 4-5 days in NMC......

Now it is getting hard enough to win bids in todays market....tell the client you are $ 5,000 higher and see if you get the bid......the contractor does not care how it looks sad to say in most cases...they want price....atleast in the markets I deal in thats how they are.

[PAbernathy]

Originally posted by Scottpat

Word of caution to everyone. I hope that Y'all are wearing safety glasses whey you are removing the panel covers. If not you need to start. Most importantly it should be an automatic movement to reach and put safety glasses on when you look at an FPE panel.

If the panel arc's it will send liquid metal at high speeds in all directions.

Great point scott......I always suggest HI's wear goggles if anything as your sight is WAY too important.

I do have to BLUSH however...I had to do a service change on a FPE today and well....it was crap....so maybe even us electricians are coming around to the idea of just saying JUNK the FPE...lol.....I made more today junking it than giving them options on it...lol

[kurt]

Paul's essentially right. Local 134 has folks so worried that NMC is the first step to the next Chicago fire. Lotta bull.

I see just as many idiotic & dangerous installations w/armored cable & EMT as the union would have us believe only exists w/NMC.

As far as savings, Paul's #'s aren't far off. How much would it save? It would save enough to make a lot of people pay attention.

[Chris Bernhardt]

I do have to BLUSH however...I had to do a service change on a FPE today and well....it was crap....so maybe even us electricians are coming around to the idea of just saying JUNK the FPE...lol.....I made more today junking it than giving them options on it...lol

Ok, now I am confused.

Am I out of line for recommending replacement?

If I recommend evaluation how do I know they are going to get an electrician who really takes serious the issues with FPE panels and who is aware of the options for correction that Paul posted?

Chris, Oregon

[hausdok]

You Don't,

Paul is a licensed electrician. He can get away with that sort of thing. We can't. If you're smart, you'll always make the absolute best recommendation that you can think of to the client. That way, if the client agrees to allow them to use less of a fix, you're in the clear. However, recommend a halfway measure and then it goes bad who do you think they'll all be glaring at?

I never recommend the Yugo fix. It's always been the Lexus fix. The 15th will mark 11 years for me. I don't get callbacks and I've never, not once, had to sit down to an arbitration or been the subject of a lawsuit. I can't believe that it's because I'm the perfect inspector - 'cuz I'm not - so I have to believe it's because I don't make wishy washy recommendations that raise doubt in anyone's mind about who I'm really working for.

Wanna know something? As soon as you resolve to make calls that way, and stop worrying about what someone else will think about your call, half of the weight of this job is off your shoulders. No more wondering whether you did the right thing or whether what you said will cause you to lose referrals, 'cuz you made your call the way you wanted to and did it based on your own conviction - not what's going to get you future referrals or what won't upset the seller and agents involved.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[kurt]

Explain to your customers along the lines of......

"There's a lot of opinions out there about how you could, should, or might do stuff; I know the guy that will tell you everything is OK, I know the guy that will tell you everything is junk, and I know everyone in between.

I've learned my customers want best practices, not what will get them by for a few more years, so that's what I give them. If you want to go w/the lesser option, that's fine & dandy, but the only recommendation you're going to hear from me is best practice, based on published information from nationally recognized experts, or the mfg'.s of the equipment."

Or, something like that. IOW, take the highest road possible; let everyone else do or say whatever they want, and don't think about them 'cuz it will just mess you up.

[Chad Fabry]

Wanna know something? As soon as you resolve to make calls that way, and stop worrying about what someone else will think about your call, half of the weight of this job is off your shoulders.

Nice, very nice. Write what's right.

[Chris Bernhardt]

If you're smart, you'll always make the absolute best recommendation that you can think of to the client.

I know I have been dancing around this issue for a while hitting it from different angles.

Mike O has repeatedly said "Best practices"

In my early years of engineering I would naively put forth the best solution to only have it picked apart until it became an adequate one. Or as they like to call it "an optimized solution"

Ideologically its not good for society but the coporate world short cuts that all the time in the name of being competetive.

I think its finally beginning to sink into my head that that way of thinking is just plain wrong in this business.

Chris, Oregon

[kurt]

That way of thinking is fine, if you're the one doing the thinking and all consequences of the thinking are accepted by you.

If someone is paying you to think for them, not telling them best practice is a very good way to get them mad @ you when they eventually figure out what best practice is.

[PAbernathy]

Yes, Remember I am a Licensed Electrician and a Home Inspector. When I explain things to you I am giving you both sides...NOT to quite or always put in a report but to educate you on the options.

The client has options.....in general conversation I know quite a few HI's who will verbally give them the few options they have and then in the report defer it for an electrical evaluation to pass the liability onto the electrical contractor which is perfectly fine.

The way I explain it to HI's is this.......let them know that they need to have it evaluated and an electrician will give them their choices...however many times the electrician will be out for one thing...a quick service change sale.....when other options pay be out their.

Sometimes I just like to teach HI's to know the options...helps them become more rounded....options, service change, replace the breakers with actual UL tested models.....I always throw in...I recommend the evaluation....but in the event you choose to not upgrade you panel...atleast consider the breaker option.....as a local municiple inspector in my area says all the time...a little safety in something is better than no safety in nothin.

[Chris Bernhardt]

This is my FPE broilerplate. I believe most of the time the agents and clients don't take it serious and just ignore it. I say that because I haven't had any agents complain that I killed thier deal because I recommended replacement. Who knows maybe they are replacing it.

Quote

Electrical: An FPE (Federal Pacific Electric) brand electrical panel serves as the main distribution panel. The electrical industry considers the design and operation of this brand problematic. The breaker design has been proven to be unreliable and is deemed to pose a fire/safety hazard. Have an electrician replace the panel right away. See https://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_Stab_Lok_Hazards.php for more information.

Chris, Oregon