GFCI Locations Chart

[Les]

Since I downloaded and stole the chart, this office has given away five! Hey it ain't the end and all, but it clearly indicated to our clients we still are the company to come to if you want some info. Likely we have a half-dozen different charts and graphs we could have copied and handed out, but this one was shown to my customers as current and an indication we pay attention to our own industry. Every man between 20 and 40 years old is an electrician, pool shark and 401k wizard, so any simple chart I can give him will help and make the house more safe. I probably won't carry it around in my wallet, but already it has had a positive effect in my area. Thanks

[Brian G]

Originally posted by Les

Every man between 20 and 40 years old is an electrician, pool shark and 401k wizard...

You forgot race car driver and stud.

Brian G.

All That and More []

[n/a4]

How can I get the GFCI not to trip? I have a fountain plugged in and it trips the GFCI. I have changed the GFCI to a new one and it still trips?. Suggestions?

D

[Brian G]

My first suggestion would be to get the wiring checked out by someone who knows their stuff. If that doesn't turn up anything, try the pump. If you have 2 consecutive GFCI's tripping in the same location something is probably wrong there. Be careful, this is water and electricity in very close proximity. Bad combination. [:-skull]

Brian G.

[Renron]

N/A,

Don't turn on the fountain.

Norm and all,

I have used your hard work 3 times in the last 2 weeks when home owners take nightime jobs as their own electricians.

Thanks for making me seem intelligent.[]

Ron

[Norm]

Danny, Steven, Les, Ron, and George,

I'm glad you found the useless and irrelivant GFCI chart of some value to you guys.

Mark, Paul, Brian, and Jim,

Next time I'll try to come up with something that you guys can use. Suggest a topic and I'll start researching it now. Anything but computer science.

NORM SAGE

[woodbyter]

Since many of us are from all over the country and not exclusive to one region I will say that I think the chart is useful to have for refference. I do not care who doesn't enforce code violations etc. Wait until you are called as a witness in an electrical shock or death case and the prosecution is looking at a copy of your report that doesn't even mention that a GFI - while possibly not being required, is not even mentioned as a safety upgrade recommendation if for no other reason than to reduce potential liability. Any person who does not use all of the information available to advise all parties in a transaction of potential dangers and possible remedies - they see - is a sitting duck - in many jurisdictions - for a civil lawsuit at the least and with juries giving out huge settlements your E&O could be cleaned for good.

Something to consider.

[chrisprickett]

Norm,

Thanks for the chart. I find it interesting and may someday use it for a reference.

If you, or anyone else, finds the cure for cancer, don't post it on this forum. Those who don't have cancer have no need for it and will likely just trash you for your efforts.

The sky is blue-no it's not.

[Brian G]

I thought the discussion about this chart was legitimate, and not overly contentious. I don't think those of us who questioned its relevance were being negative for the sake of being negative, we were all really debating inspecting / reporting philosophy and style. I think new guys who have no set philosophy and style benefit from these discussions. I think the rest of us benefit from have our respective positions tested by differing minds. No harm, no foul.

Mr. Woodbyter, I didn't see anyone on either side suggesting that GFCI's not be recommended where needed, only differing on how to characterize it and whether the chart is useful to that end. If you're going to post, how about filling in your profile so we know who we're talking to.

Brother Prickett, I understand your frustration with the unpleasantness that has been dominating these boards a lot lately, but please don't confuse legitimate disagreements and discussions over actual HI issues with the urinating contests over organizations and personalities that account for the vast majority of the negativity here. The former is not the problem, the latter is.

Brian G.

[chrisprickett]

Originally posted by Brian G.

I thought the discussion about this chart was legitimate, and not overly contentious. I don't think those of us who questioned its relevance were being negative for the sake of being negative, we were all really debating inspecting / reporting philosophy and style. I think new guys who have no set philosophy and style benefit from these discussions. I think the rest of us benefit from have our respective positions tested by differing minds. No harm, no foul.

Mr. Woodbyter, I didn't see anyone on either side suggesting that GFCI's not be recommended where needed, only differing on how to characterize it and whether the chart is useful to that end. If you're going to post, how about filling in your profile so we know who we're talking to.

Brother Prickett, I understand your frustration with the unpleasantness that has been dominating these boards a lot lately, but please don't confuse legitimate disagreements and discussions over actual HI issues with the urinating contests over organizations and personalities that account for the vast majority of the negativity here. The former is not the problem, the latter is.

Brian G.

First reply to Norm's chart:

"It's a lovely chart, but who cares?

It's totally irrelevant to what we do. How would any home inspector ever use this information?"

At the very least sarcastic, at worst demeaning. But no denying, negative.

Hey, do what you want. But when this board turns into a three man circle jerk, what purpose will it serve?

[Brian G]

Originally posted by chrisprickett

First reply to Norm's chart:

"It's a lovely chart, but who cares?

It's totally irrelevant to what we do. How would any home inspector ever use this information?"

At the very least sarcastic, at worst demeaning. But no denying, negative.

On the first line, I agree. The second and third line are a legitimate position of dissent. Even with the unfortunate first line, it's one post out of two pages. Both Jimmy M. and I took the time to specify that we were not kicking Norm, just debating the issues attached from a dissenting point of view. Surely all dissent is not in and of itself negative, i.e. bad.

---

Hey, do what you want. But when this board turns into a three man circle jerk, what purpose will it serve?

None. What purpose would this board serve if no one ever disagreed with anyone on anything, no matter how far out in left field it might be? The same.

I hear you Chris, I just think you're lumping legitimate HI debate in with far worse things. Unlike some, I can agree to disagree agreeably, if you wish.

Brian G.

[Chad Fabry]

Let me just say, I like the chart and have downloaded it to my Home inspection folder. Thanks to those involved for making it available to me. I may never use it, or maybe some realtor or seller will make a fuss over me recommending GFCI's and I can just hand it to them and go about my business rather than entering a pissing match.

The next thing I'd like to say is this board to me is like belonging to an organization, and I feel gratitude for the education I've gotten so far and for the friends I've made here. I'm very fortunate to have the experience of so many folks who are excellent at their jobs and teach me out of the goodness of their hearts. It'd be a damn shame to see it devolve so that every topic garners responses generated from our brain stems instead of our cerebellum. It's making me rather sad.

We're diplomatic AND forthright when we do our inspections. I'm sure that we can master the same qualities here where everyone has exactly the same goals and ambitions.

If I can be married to a woman that voted for Hillary (though it did create a conflict) we can get along here and be nice even in our criticisms. If I join ASHI do I have to worry about being on some people's shit list? How about if I join NACHI?

I pledge to speak my mind AND be considerate to the absolute best of my ability.

[Norm]

Hey Guys and Gals,

The GFCI chart was meant as a reference for your use only. If it's relevant in your practice use it. If it's irrelevant trash it. I was only trying to provide information.

NORM SAGE

[Renron]

Norm!

Guess what?..... I used the chart again today. Thanks

Ron

[mcramer]

Originally posted by Renron

Norm!

Guess what?..... I used the chart again today. Thanks

Ron

Just curious. For what?

[Renron]

Mark,

Some of the realtors I am lucky enough to deal with (yes lucky) are actually of the sort that want to know when GFCIs were required in kitchens and garages. HONEST to GOD, today I Emailed one with information on legislation regarding how many straps had to be on a 80 gal. water heater. She asked me! I have done 3 inspections in the last month for her and I am sure more will come, the last one had mold and TONS of electrical problems.

Ron

[homnspector]

Ok Guys, I know this is an old topic but it is bugging the crap out of me. So you all are saying it has nothing to do with when it was required, it is a safety issue. OK, how many of you were recommending GFCI protection in the kitchen BEFORE it was required by code. Are you recommending AFCI at all breakers because it is safer even though it isnt required yet?? Give me a break, we recommend very little before it is required by code, but suddenly when code requires it, it is a big safety issue. what is up with this??

[Paul MacLean]

Texas SOP requires us to call out any GFCI's not up to current standards as "in need of repair." However AFCI's are not mentioned in the standards. I call out AFCI's if they are not in bedrooms in houses built after 2002 when they where first required, otherwise I ignore them. As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out regarding AFCI's.

As a side note, I recently replaced my 1977 FPE panel with a new Cutler Hammer service panel. With the updated panel the AHJ in Austin insisted on AFCI's for the bedroom circuits. We put them in to get code approval, but the circuits covered other receptacles like a hallway, and not every bedroom outlet was on the AFCI. The circuits weren't run like they are today. Also, my wife's treadmill is in compatible with AFCI breakers and repeatedly caused it to trip. I finally replaced that AFCI breaker with a regular breaker...no more trip problems.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by homnspector

Ok Guys, I know this is an old topic but it is bugging the crap out of me. So you all are saying it has nothing to do with when it was required, it is a safety issue. OK, how many of you were recommending GFCI protection in the kitchen BEFORE it was required by code. Are you recommending AFCI at all breakers because it is safer even though it isnt required yet?? Give me a break, we recommend very little before it is required by code, but suddenly when code requires it, it is a big safety issue. what is up with this??

Changes in the code reflect changes in our understanding of safety. When new safety products like GFCIs and AFCIs are introduced it takes many years to determine exactly what they are and are not capable of and where they can be best deployed. We went through that learning curve with GFCIs and, though it took many years, we've ended up with reliable devices that provide good protection in the places we now require them. We're only just beginning that trek with AFCIs. The product isn't what it should be yet, so introducing them slowly makes sense till we can establish their real benefit.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[monte]

Norm

Thank you for the chart. It sure in hell beats going through old code books to find a answer and for those HI's that say what good is it because GFCIs and the new GFCIs locations were not required when the Home was built, all I can say to them is, these GFCIs location are now required in 2005.

[Brian G]

Originally posted by monte

It sure in hell beats going through old code books to find a answer and for those HI's that say what good is it because GFCIs and the new GFCIs locations were not required when the Home was built, all I can say to them is, these GFCIs location are now required in 2005.

Who said that? Those of us who saw no purpose for the chart call for GFCI's wherever current codes require them, regardless of when the house was built. No chart needed for that.

This topic is better left alone.

Brian G.

[Richard Moore]

I just skimmed through this thread for the first time. I've been using this chart since I first saw it quite some time ago (my thanks to the authors). While I always recommend GFCI's in any now-required area that they may be missing from, I use the chart to differentiate between "Safety Concern and Repair" and "Safety Concern and Upgrade".

As for the fuss this seems to be causing, I'm feeling too mellow to comment.

[homnspector]

Huh, I think I stumbled onto the NEC forum, I thought this was the home inspectors forum. So I guess what those who don't need or like the chart are saying is that we don't worry about these things until they are required by code and at that point they are a major safety issue to be retroactively repaired no mater what the expense. We should all work for the municipality, forcing homeowners to bring their old houses up to curent code. (which one is the sarcasm smiley? I cant find it)

[Brian G]

Originally posted by homnspector

So I guess what those who don't need or like the chart are saying is that we don't worry about these things until they are required by code and at that point they are a major safety issue to be retroactively repaired no mater what the expense.

I assume everyone pretty much said what they meant, no exaggerated interpretations required. Jim already spoke to the timing issue as it relates to new safety devices.

We should all work for the municipality, forcing homeowners to bring their old houses up to curent code. (which one is the sarcasm smiley? I cant find it)

"We" can't force anyone to do anything, but the AHJ's in my town do exactly that whenever anyone is foolish enough to let the meter be pulled for any reason. All HI's do is recommend for safety reasons, which is based on the codes one way or the other, but not limited by them.

You can have the last word.

Brian G.

[homnspector]

OK Thanks