Slab deviation between driveway & walkway

[McBride]

Ok, no laughing...This is likely the "dumb question" of the day..Again, I'm not an expert like you guys nor can I even remember the last time I stayed at a Holiday Inn!

Anyway, we've had a bit of rain here in AZ the past few weeks. Heck, I even washed my car once in the last week. Needless to say that after these events we have the standing/ponding water problem on our driveway. The water literally sits there for days.

Okay, time for the question......How much of this water is likely absorbed into the cement and then into the soil beneath? I realize we have very expansive soil here in AZ and I'm curious how much possible damage this might be causing? Needless to say it's EXTREMELY frustrating to walk outside a few hours after it has rained and look around at all the houses on our steet and see that their driveways are actually slope to force water away from the house! Imagine that concept! Normally by about day 3 or 4 ours has finally gone away, but where does it go?

[hausdok]

It evaporates!

OT - OF!!!

M.

[McBride]

Of course I realize it evaporates (I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but there's still some hope!)....But I think I'm askig more along the lines of the elements of the cement, house foundation etc as far as water entering? Given that our driveway doesn't slope away from our foundation as it should, I just wonder how much water is entering our soil that shouldn't, etc.

I guess in reality there is no way to answe that without seeing our house in person. Sorry, just tack this question up to me thinking out loud, while at the same time sitting too close to my computer!

[hausdok]

If it's an ordinary pour, it's going to absorb water, reach equilibrium with the soil around it and just stay damp. If it's 5,000 psi it won't even do that. Unless you've got cracks or control joints that are open clean through the slab to allow water to drain past, it won't allow a lot of water to pass - not enough to matter, anyway. You'll get far, far more soaking into the soil from the rain than through the slab.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[swarga]

The moisture through the control joints and around the edges of the slab are the big issues, the amount of water soaking through from the top down is not a huge deal.

However your home may have the opposite problem where the moisture is coming from the ground, through the slab and into the house. Read http://www.acsillc.com/blog/

[McBride]

Chris Prickett:

Which standard of workmanship were you exactly referring to on page 13 of AZ ROC workmanship standards? The only reason I ask is because we finally got a response from our builder and they are now saying all the work is up to standard and to not waste our time going through AZ ROC.

ANYTIME we've ever brought an issue up with our CSR he always says "it's within code, so don't waste your time" but then HE always offers to contact the AZ ROC on our behalf to set up a visit from them. I think 95% of his customers here this and just take him at his word.

Anyway, he said it's not a trip-hazard, yet won't answer a direct question when we ask him why no other house but ours looks like this. We also told him we have water that ponds for 3-4 days after a time on our driveway after it rains. He then said that as long as it's only ponding on the driveway that they can't do anything about it and that it's normal and the AZ ROC would again be in their favor.

Mind you, we didn't get a reponse from him until after we contacted corporate. He ignored our calls for the last week until yesterday when we called corporate. He then sent his "concrete guy" to stop by and look at our situation...Funny though they did not bother to do a water test or to even look at our garage floor, which again, is 3-4" lower than all the other homes at the opening. He said that he drove out here one day after it rained and look at the driveway. He agreed that it ponds water but not enough to be a problem. I don't buy that for a second.

Anyway, I was just curious which section of the AZ ROC workmanship standards you were looking at on page 13? - Thanks

[Bob White]

I'm not Chris, but I think he was referring to paragragh 6 at the bottom of page 13:

6. PD Ponding or standing water on garages, patios, stoops, carports, walks and

driveway concrete surfaces.

AT Water should drain. Standing water exceeding 3/32" is unacceptable.

Standing water exceeding 3/16" on driveways is unacceptable. Flood, wait

30 minutes and then check for ponding.

CR Contractor should make necessary repairs.

[McBride]

Thanks, Bob

I too think that's what he was referring to, but there's also mention of a trip hazard there as well. I did my own water test yesterday and there are a few spots on the slab that are right at the 3/16" mark. I guess was concerns me most is the area that is in question here. The slab is approx 9'x 7' and when flooded, the standing water covers just about the entire length where the slope was created.

I guess what I'm mosy confused about is that everything I've read states that water should flow away from the foundation. This water does not flow anywhere! It literally sits there until it evaporates, which can sometimes take days. - My worry is that the AZ ROC rep might say the water is right at 3/16", and nothing would have to be done, yet it's more than obvious that water doesn't flow away as it should.

Is there not some national standard in regards to concrete that states there must be a slope away from the foundation? Sorry for the continued rant, but it just seems like we are getting the complete runaround from our builder here. It's just frustrating to walk outside a day or two after it rains and see puddles in our driveway and yet all my neighbor's have totally dry driveways, and they were all done by the same builder.

[McBride]

Okay fellas,

I realize I've dragged this post on long enough, so I have just a few final comments and questions and I'll be on my way. Please just understand I am trying to gather as much info as possible before deciding on whether or not we need to go the legal route. We really don't want to have to do that, so I am exploring all possible options.

Anyway, I checked with the building officials in the county we live in and I found out that they use the following:

Adopted Codes

International Building Code (2000 Edition)

International Residential Code (2000 Edition)

- So, I wonder if when our builder's sub did the concrete work, do they still have to abide by the codes above? I read that the IRC requires a 6" slope away from the foundation within the first 10 ft. It's clear to the naked eye that we are lucky to have a 1" slope over the first 10 ft. The front slab in question is about 7 ft long by itself and it's a good 5+ ft after that before there is any sort of slope.

We had a bit of rain here in AZ right before the sun came up this morning. Anyway, I walked outside an hour or so later and of course all my neighbors had dry driveways. On the other hand we were "lucky" enough to have a nearly 7 ft in length puddle waiting for us. Mind you, it's been nearly 12 hours since it rained and our puddle is still there!

So, here's my question....Our CSR has already admitted that we do indeed have ponding water. His reason for not attempting to repair it is that he doesn't feel it is more than 3/16". I wonder if we can argue back that they are in violation because we do not have the required 6" of slope within the first 10 ft? The standing water is sooooo very close to the 3/16" in depth. I can easily fit a nickle under water but when I stack a nickle and a dime it's darn close. But still, to have a puddle covering the length of our slab just seems ridiculous. I've attached a few photos of our puddle today. These were taken about 5 hours after the rain had stopped. Not to mention we didn't get that much rain at all.

Anyway, please let me know if it would be appropriate to at least challenge him on the IRC issue...Thanks again for all your help! You guys really have been great and I truly do appreciate all the information that has been provided!

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[paul burrell]

Mike,

We use rule of 1/2 inch per foot slope out to 10 feet from foundation for a total minium of 5 inches. In any event there should not be standing water in driveway especially at a new home. However the original problem started with the grading contractor and was exacerbated by the concrete contractor for pouring over improper grade slope. It also appears you have a trip hazard where the driveway meets the garage pour at the house side, probably caused by an attempt to achieve a proper slope that was not present in the grading work.

So you have three entities to deal with in a

lawsuit, the builder, cement contractor and the grading contractor. All three dropped the ball on your job.

Small claims court limit is $5,000 here don't know about Az. Consult with an attorney for a few hundred dollars about the possibility of suing each, one at a time for their respective improper workmanship.

Just my opinion which may not be worth much.

Paul Burrell

[McBride]

Paul,

Thanks for the info. We mentioned this to our CSR yesterday and he said they are not required to go by anything in the IRC. He said it's just a guideline and can't be enforced. So, I guess they can slope all their other driveways as they should be, but ours doesn't qualify for that..Amazing he can say that. I guess we are just crazy for wanting water to actually drain away from our foundation!

Anyway after arguing with our CSR for the past 2 weeks he finally sent a "denial" work order for our complaint. He actually made it official in writing that he "stopped by one day after it had rained, and although there is ponding it does not measure 3/16"..Still, for him to admit there is ponding is pathetic..He also wrote that the conrete sub stopped by one day to look at the slope that had been created after the first attempt to repair the area. He said that it was "per the desogn plan" and not considered a trip-hazard in his opinion.

This is frustrating because he never even bothered to do a water test of the area and did we really expet the conrete guy to admit that HE made a mistake, TWICE!!! It's amazing to me that they can't send an independent party out to view and test the area. I also love how they both stopped by in secret without ever telling us.

But anyway, now that they have officially denied the work order we can either accept it or fight them. I'd love to see the design plan the concrete sub mentioned. Funny how not a single other house among the thousands they have built has this "design plan." - I guess DR Horton is proud of the fact they build homes with standing water puddles that extend the entire lenth of one full 7 ft driveway slab! You have to give it up for the great quality work at "America's Builder"....Sorry, I'm just literally disgusted at the moment.

[paul burrell]

Mike,

I have found that the only to get a builder like yours to fix a problem is to show them the code section that is written clearly on what the specifications are. Of course all to many code sections are ambiguous and not precise. The County planning and zoning at your Courthouse will have it if it is to be had. Local codes trumps IRC on most issues.

It appears the builder is not going to do anything unless forced. That means an attorney for big $$ and you may or may not win. In California Contractors have strict standards and must maintain a bond to cover their mistakes. Have you checked into the Az. licensing criteria?

You seem to be stressed over this problem. I personally will not worry about material things and possibly get ill over them. I will simply get rid of the problem if I can't live with it. I will sell the problem, chalk it up to experience and never look back even with a moderate loss if necessary. If it is any consolation there are far to many buyers being raked over the coals by Builders. You are not alone.

The way I see it is you can:

1- Sue, pay big attorney fees and you

may or may not win.

2- Fix it yourself if it is fixable and won't

destroy you bank account.

3- Live with it if you can stand it. If you can't.

4- Sell it and move on to bigger and better things and chalk it up to experience.

My choice is definitely # 4 so as to eliminate the problem, accompanying stress and aggravation. However I am in no way telling or advising you what to do. You have to make that decision.

Paul B.

Been there done that and ain't gonna do it again if I can possibly help it.