Copper Tubing in Gas Log Fireplace

[Focal Point]

I hate to keep changing the subject back to the original topic but...

I did a little checking and according to a post on codecheck.com by Redwood Kardon, The writer of the 'Code check" series

He says, And I quote:

"UPC 1210.1 does not list copper as an acceptable material for gas piping. Other codes don't have this restriction but you have to check with the supplying utility. Sulfides in odorants can deteriate copper. Codes aside, you should check with the utility to find out about the composition of their gas and its effect on the copper."

[Focal Point]

As far as the Hydrogen Sulfide, Natural gas is composed of one part Methane and four parts Hydrogen. Now the aditive mercaptan is produced with mostly sulfide. Now im not chemist but I think with 4 parts Hydrogen and Several sulfides, your bound to end up with Hydrogen Sulfide... But I may be wrong.

It's happened before...

[hausdok]

Hi,

Well, Focal Point wrote:

I hate to keep changing the subject back to the original topic but...

I did a little checking and according to a post on codecheck.com by Redwood Kardon, The writer of the 'Code check" series

He says, And I quote:

"UPC 1210.1 does not list copper as an acceptable material for gas piping. Other codes don't have this restriction but you have to check with the supplying utility. Sulfides in odorants can deteriate copper. Codes aside, you should check with the utility to find out about the composition of their gas and its effect on the copper."

Well, I don't want to beat a dead horse either - and I think we've said essentially just that - but here're some FAQ's I snagged off the Copper Development Association's site. I'll assume that, for the sake of accuracy, they won't mind my doing so, since it's word-for-word what they're telling the public.

TAKEN FROM THE COPPER DEVELOPMENT ASSOCIATION'S FUEL GAS FAQ's

3. Is copper approved for use in fuel gas system by any national and regional building codes?

The National Fuel Gas Code (NFPA 54/ANSI Z223.1) and all of the major model building codes have approved copper for the use in fuel gas systems. In fact, in states like Minnesota, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, etc, copper is the dominant, if not the primary choice, for flexible fuel gas piping systems in homes and multi-family units. IAPMO approved copper for use with fuel gas in 1999 - you may want to read the announcement.

4. Is copper tubing permitted to be used for fuel gas distribution in Massachusetts?

The installation of fuel gas systems in Massachusetts is governed by the 248 CMR Massachusetts State Plumbing and Gas Fitting Code in which unlined copper tube is not permitted for natural gas transmission or distribution. Although the code references the allowable use of tin lined copper tube for fuel gas applications, 248CMR also references NFPA 54, which is the National Fuel Gas Code, and this code does allow the use of copper tube for fuel gas if the gas supplied contains less than 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per 100 standard cubic feet of gas. Elevated levels of hydrogen sulfide in the gas stream can react with copper tube and can cause flaking of copper oxides on the inside of the tube.

10. I have been in the plumbing industry for 37 years, and have been in business for 26 years. As far as I know it is contrary to the UPC to install copper to carry either natural gas or LP gas. If I am wrong please set me straight? Doesn’t this cause flaking of the copper system?

In certain areas of the country it has been against the code to install copper tube for natural gas distribution. This was primarily in areas of the country that utilized the Uniform Plumbing Code, predominately in the West, and most actively in California.

However, at that same time many other areas of the country were successfully installing copper tube in both natural gas and LP gas distribution systems. Many of these areas have been installing copper tube for natural gas distribution for better than 35 - 40 years (Minnesota, St. Louis, Atlanta, Washington D.C. among others) and for most of the country copper tube has been the standard material for LP gas distribution much longer than that.

In the beginning, the reason for this disparity throughout the country in the acceptance of copper tube for this use had to do with the gas being supplied. In the southwest area of the country sour gas (gas containing a significant amount of hydrogen sulfide) was not uncommon, and the use of copper tube in a gas stream containing significant amounts of hydrogen sulfide and moisture lead to the black flakes to which you refer. It should be noted that this was generally encountered in natural gas systems, not LP gas systems (LP being a manufactured gas was more closely controlled with regards to contaminants). However, in the rest of the country the natural gas being supplied did not contain such high concentrations of hydrogen sulfide, allowing for the successful use of copper tube. This was reflected in the codes and standards used throughout the rest of the country allowing copper tube for this use (such as the NFPA 54 National Fuel Gas Code, the BOCA National Mechanical Code and the SBCCI Standard Mechanical Code).

In the last 35 - 40 years, the cleaning and distribution of natural gas throughout the country has improved greatly, especially with the development of regulations strictly limiting the amount of hydrogen sulfide and other contaminants that could be distributed in the gas stream, especially for those gases being supplied over nationwide, inter-linked gas distribution pipelines/systems. These regulations limit the hydrogen sulfide to such a level that it should no longer be available in large enough quantities to promote the black flaking that you had seen in the past.

Recognizing this fact, and the fact that the use of copper tube for the natural gas distribution system allowed gas utilities and building owners to provide natural gas as a cost effective alternate energy source to electric, has led many areas of the country that previously banned the use of copper in this use to reevaluate their position. Most notably, the Pacific northwest (Oregon and Washington especially) have recently begun to aggressively promote and use copper tube for their natural gas distribution systems, regardless of the restriction in the Uniform Plumbing Code.

Following suit, IAPMO, through the use of the consensus process voted to change the Uniform Plumbing Code to lift the restriction on the use of copper tube for fuel gas distribution systems. These changes were published in the 2000 edition of the UPC and UMC.

However, since all natural gas supplies are not necessarily delivered via pipelines regulated by the above regulations, all of the codes allowing for the use of copper in natural gas distribution systems do contain the restriction that bare copper tube not be used if the gas stream contains an average of more than 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per 100 standard cubic feet of gas. Should the gas stream exceed this amount, the codes permit the use of copper tubing if the tube is tin-lined. These requirements are in place to minimize the possibility of flaking inside the copper and to ensure an efficient and successful use of copper tube for this application.

You will find more information on the proper use of copper tube in fuel gas distribution systems in this web site. For more information on the use of copper tube in your particular area, please contact a CDA Regional Manager responsible for your area.

11. Do the natural gas installation codes in the U.S. permit forged brass flare nuts and flare nuts machined from brass bar stock, or do they stipulate forged only?

NFPA 54 does not stipulate whether the fittings have to be forged or machined, only that they be of copper, brass or bronze.

13. We have a wall-mounted, gas heater that has copper tubing, and a brass shut-off valve [the installation is in Chicago, IL area]. On a previous home inspection, we were told that this is not code and it should be replaced. Could you please verify?

Copper tube has been accepted for fuel gas distribution in all of the national model codes in the United States, including the Uniform Plumbing and Mechanical Codes, the National Fuel Gas Code, and the International Fuel Gas Code. However, these codes are simply national models for state, city and local jurisdictions to follow. The model codes referenced are actually standards and do not have the power of a code or law until a jurisdiction adopts them.

You should check with your local Building Department to see if they allow copper tube for natural gas distribution. Unfortunately, even though copper tube has been recognized as an acceptable alternative for natural gas distribution throughout the United States, not all local jurisdictions allow for its use at this time, and it is the local jurisdiction whose codes have the force of law.

I think this should put this to bed once and for all.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[wingfoot]

A little clarity may be needed from me. It wasn't the use of copper tubing for gas lines that I was concerned with, I see it used all the time here in metro Atlanta. It was seeing the copper inside of the fireplace itself that I had not seen, only black iron and flex pipe. I was unsure if the heat would be factor or not.

[hausdok]

Yep,

Which I fully recognized when I referred you to the Copper Development Association's site and provided that snipette from their text that talked about the use of copper pipe for gas fireplaces.

Just FYI, every single time someone mentions the use of copper for natural gas, this debate about the use of copper flares up again. I expect it always will.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Focal Point]

Here is the deal, Mike I Like you. I admire your knowlege and ability, You obviously know your stuff and I am not debating that.

However I am going to have to agree to disagree. I was taught in school that copper is wrong. In my reporting software it says it is wrong. Like a said a copule of days ago I think it is a regional thing.

I guess it boils down to Better safe than sorry. I will not take the copper industries word for it. To me that seems silly. (No! dont use our product!!!) I will continue to write this up in my reports and let the client make the final decision.

One team... One fight.

[wingfoot]

That is really bizarre that your boilerplate would say using copper pipe for gas is wrong. It is all over the IRC Ch.24 about using copper tubing in gas applications. Regionally it is not an issue here. Maybe in your area.

Page 2 here we come!

[hausdok]

Sigh,

OK, I'm no longer sure what the dispute here is, but I'll try one last time and that's all I've got energy for.

It's your prerogative to believe whatever you like and to write whatever you like. But if you're going to rely on boilerplate for the truth, when boilerplate is something that someone else believed when he or she wrote it for your software, you could one day find yourself wondering why you didn't go out, get the answers yourself and tweak your boilerplate to fit the reality of your own situation.

The fact that you relied on the boilerplate to be 100% fact will never help you if you are ever faced with a dispute in court, and neither the guy who taught you that alleged fact in school or the author of the boilerplate will be there in court to defend you - for anything.

I've written boilerplate for software, yet I've never stepped foot in the state of Florida. I have no doubt that some of what I wrote works as well in Florida as it does in Alaska, but I also know and understand that, even though I was helped by folks in Florida on some of that boilerplate, that there are probably portions that are not 100% accurate, because not all jurisdictions agree on what they'll use. In fact, I'll bet there's boilerplate that I wrote five years ago that used to be perfectly valid in some places which is no longer valid in those same places now, due to code changes and the changing dynamic of the construction world.

That's just a fact of life and becoming married to your boilerplate can, in my opinion, be problematic. When you purchase a software package, you have to do a little bit of homework and tweak the boilerplate so that it, pretty much, fits the area where you live. Otherwise, you might be reporting things inaccurately day after day after day.

The Copper Development Association explains it very plainly in my previous post. Copper pipe is accepted by the major codes they've cited and some jurisdictions still don't accept it. I thought we'd already agreed on that. So, as inspectors who are supposed to make our living reporting accurately, it's our responsibility to research our own areas and make sure that we're aware of the rules for our own areas, which is exactly what the CDA is saying.

Is that simple? No, for example, the city of Seattle just accepted the 2003 IRC with modifications. In order for anyone to have an accurate copy of the Seattle residential code, they have to utilize both the 2003 IRC and the 2004 amendments adopted by the City. Yet, 5 years ago, they were using the UBC. Seattle is ringed by a lot of smaller communities and some of these are still using the 1997 version of the UBC, others are using the 1995 CABO, while others are using the 2000 version of the IRC.

I can pull up the websites of any town around here and find various stuff that's accepted by the model codes and still isn't accepted by those municipalities. I can also find stuff that isn't accepted by the model codes that is accepted by some of those municipalities. Even small towns bordering each other accept different stuff and reject other stuff. What CDA is saying is that you must do your own research.

So, what's my point? Just this, if the gas company and 100% of the code authorities in your area don't allow gas, then you are correct insofar as inspections done in your locale are concerned. However, if just one town in your area accepts the use of copper, and the gas company is allowing it, and you are writing it as a deficiency in that town, than you are essentially making stuff up based on erroneous information.

Making a blanket statement on a national board that copper is unacceptable but may be accepted in some places is inaccurate. It would be more accurate to state, as the CDA has stated, that it's accepted by the model codes but some jurisdictions still don't accept it, as the CDA has stated. Can you see my point?

As far as calling into question the credibility of what CDA has posted on their site, while implying that they'd knowingly falsify something in order to sell their product, I think that's just plain silly. Posting stuff on their site which can easily be shown to be blatantly false would do a lot to hurt their credibility, and, as far as I know, their credibility is pretty good.

Is it Bill Loden who says, "Your mileage may vary?"

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Focal Point]

M.

I will always admit when I am wrong and I think this is one of those times.

I see your point and I regress. Thank you so much for your insight.

I will make the appropriate changes.

Damned hard headed aren’t I?

[hausdok]

Nah,

My wife wears that crown.

We're here to help one another. That's what this place is all about. Sometimes, it just takes a while to get the message across - especially when one is as long-winded as I am.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Phillip]

Mike ,

Keep on being long-winded. You help a lot of us out along with others that post at this great place for info.