Sub or Service?

[Katanadave27]

Hello All,

Sorry if this sounds stupid but I need some help...I have another question in regards to service to sub-panel installation...I am here in Texas and from what I can recall this is not right...I am in the process of researching now but just wanted to throw this out there for your viewing pleasure...Any input will be helpful.

A few questions....

Is it permitted to have an previous existing service panel with wires installed and black tape around wires?

Shouldn't the installation of the new panel be directly in place of the old Panel?

Does this make the Service panel that was installed a sub-panel by the way it is wired?

If the (Newer)Service panel is considered to be a sub-panel then does anyone know off hand if NEC or IRC allows sub-panels(Service panel) to have sub-panels?

I believe the owner said during the inspection the home was like this when he bought it.

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[BlackJack]

Looks like they replaced an old FP breaker panel.

Is it permitted to have an previous existing service panel with wires installed and black tape around wires?

Black tape only? No wire nuts? Definitely NO. They do look like waterproof wire nuts.

Shouldn't the installation of the new panel be directly in place of the old Panel?

Can be, doesn’t have to be. My question would be, [1] Are the panels watertight? Do not appear to be. [2] The SE cable looks smaller that what’s required for 100 amp service. [3] Are there too many breakers for 100 amp service? [4] Is there a splice in the SE cable or the cable to the gnd rod. [5] Are the Gnd and Netural Buss bonded?

Does this make the Service panel that was installed a sub-panel by the way it is wired?

No. Doesn’t look like there is a sub panel. The panel with the wire nuts is being used as a gutter panel. This is better, I think, than all the pig tailing and wire nuts being installed in the breaker panel. Even though it’s not a real gutter panel.

If the (Newer)Service panel is considered to be a sub-panel then does anyone know off hand if NEC or IRC allows sub-panels(Service panel) to have sub-panels?

[hausdok]

Hi,

Well, I'm not an electrician and I'm pretty weak in electricity but I'll take a shot at it. (Hope DH doesn't send me an e-mail spanking me for a dumb statement here. [:-scared])

Is it permitted to have an previous existing service panel with wires installed and black tape around wires?

It looks like the original service entrance cables from the meter are spliced, inside the old panelboard, to those which now feed that new panelboard. The splices are behind that mass of wire. I can't see any "black tape" so I'm guessing that you saw it and that what you saw is conductors spliced with split-bolt connectors and then heavily wrapped with tape, which seems to be pretty common in retrofits. However, it does look like the service grounding electrode conductor has been spliced with that wire nut, which I think is a no-no.

Splices are permitted in gutters as long as the overall amount of wire does not exceed 40% of the gutterspace. Although that looks pretty full, I don't think it constitutes 40%. With 40% fill you'd be hard pressed to find any space in there. I think if you had about 1-1/2 times that amount of wire and splices in there you'd be able to say it was more than 40% full.

Shouldn't the installation of the new panel be directly in place of the old Panel?

Ideally, I suppose, but what they've done is, as far as I know, allowed.

Does this make the Service panel that was installed a sub-panel by the way it is wired?

No. The old panelboard enclosure is joined by metal to the meter with a myers hub and the new panelboard is joined to the old panelboard enclosure by metal by a myers hub, therefore the electrician has turned the old panelboard enclosure into "gutter" space. The new panelboard is where the main disconnect is now located and is the service entrance.

If the (Newer)Service panel is considered to be a sub-panel then does anyone know off hand if NEC or IRC allows sub-panels(Service panel) to have sub-panels?

Doesn't apply since this is not a sub-panel but is the actual service entrance. As for the question, anything panel after the main disconnect is a sub-panel and needs to be configured as such.

Okay, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[hausdok]

Hi,

[2] The SE cable looks smaller that what’s required for 100 amp service.

It looks like a #4 copper. I'd assumed, since he didn't say differently, that it was.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Les]

Just to make the water even more muddy - does the "gutter" have to be secured? like with a screw thru the cover?

And I agree with mike and blackjack.

[hausdok]

Hi Les,

That's a valid point. Most gutters one sees require one to remove some screws to open them. Around here, when old fuse boxes are turned into gutters or junction boxes, the electricians typically drill a couple of holes and use self-tapping screws to keep the cover closed and curious homeowner fingers out.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Katanadave27]

Thanks Guys I really appreciate the help...I am still a little confused on some aspects but when I put a finger on it I will let you know.

I am going to attach another picture about the Black TAPE...but just to advise I did not see any evidence of wire nuts on the interior of black tape area.

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[rlskfoster]

I believe that the weatherproof boxes can only be penetrated in the lower third of the box. Any penetration higher requires a Myers hub or other approved raintight hub and I don't see that on any of the penetrations above the bottom third.

Buster

[monte]

The labeling of the neutral with the white tape would not fly in our City or County (white, gray, white stripe only), also can not see the other end in the so called gutter.