Electrical Code-New Construction

[mjr6550]

I was in Whitley County, Indiana on Wednesday to look over a new house my nephew is buying. I thought it was odd that the receptacles were not tamper resistant and there were no AFCI breakers. I looked up the local code and they are not required. Nice way for builders to save a few bucks. Anyone else seeing this in new construction?

I did not find much wrong, but primer was not used on the furnace vent piping, and one joint in the attic had completely separated.

[Jim Katen]

. . . Nice way for builders to save a few bucks. . . .

That stuff doesn't "cost" the builder anything. The cost is passed on to the consumer, along with a markup.

[brric]

Indiana has exempted the use of AFCI's and TR recaps.

[John Kogel]

Indiana has exempted the use of AFCI's and TR receps.

ISA, the Independent States of America. []

[Scottpat]

I dislike TR receptacles from an inspection standpoint! AFCI's are nice now that they have improved them.. Even though TN has a statewide electrical code I know of a couple jurisdictions that do not require TR receptacles but all require AFCI's.

How in the world is a child going to learn that they can't stick car keys into a receptacle if it is a TR type! We've all done it before and learned from that shocking experience!

[kurt]

TR's are a pain in the ass even when I'm not inspecting.

We're training children to be morons.

[Garry Sorrells]

................

How in the world is a child going to learn that they can't stick car keys into a receptacle if it is a TR type! We've all done it before and learned from that shocking experience!

Anti Darwinism at work. The 1st world nations are creating a society that the takes the challenge of life away from society. 3rd world is creating survivors and challengers. Tamper proof this and safety that creates those that won't climb ladders and won't walk roofs. The key word is "won't " as as apposed to "can't".

[Jim Baird]

Remember, friends, that codes development is just as vulnerable to corporate influence as are all of our lawmaking bodies from local to state.

I have sometimes wondered if some products were rushed to market and listing and approval by AHJ's by that kind of influence. I won't name anything here to avoid the stigma/aura of a political post, but I would like to hear what more think about the states' feet dragging on some code changes.

[Scottpat]

Remember, friends, that codes development is just as vulnerable to corporate influence as are all of our lawmaking bodies from local to state.

I have sometimes wondered if some products were rushed to market and listing and approval by AHJ's by that kind of influence. I won't name anything here to avoid the stigma/aura of a political post, but I would like to hear what more think about the states' feet dragging on some code changes.

Go look at the background for AFCI's? I think it was Eaton or another company that came out with them and they were about the only ones on the committee that developed the code for AFCI's?.. Makes one go, Hummmm!

[Marc]

Remember, friends, that codes development is just as vulnerable to corporate influence as are all of our lawmaking bodies from local to state.

I have sometimes wondered if some products were rushed to market and listing and approval by AHJ's by that kind of influence. I won't name anything here to avoid the stigma/aura of a political post, but I would like to hear what more think about the states' feet dragging on some code changes.

Louisiana certainly drags it's feet more than most. An adjacent parish just 15 minutes from me still has no code enforcement authority yet. The state is lax in enforcing it.

Marc

[kurt]

Remember, friends, that codes development is just as vulnerable to corporate influence as are all of our lawmaking bodies from local to state.

You betcha.

[Nolan Kienitz]

My oft-used phrase is: "Follow The Money."

New home construction builders will do absolutely no more than what the local AHJ requires them to do ... no matter what the code and even 'local AHJ adopted' code says.

I gave up doing new home construction phase inspections 5 years ago as I got tired of arguing with the builder and the AHJ ... even when the AHJ adopted paperwork was presented to them.

Simply a "wink-wink" and "move along" ... there is nothing to see here.

AHJ's and new home builders (follow the money) and the handshaking going on between the two.

Sucks ...

[Jim Katen]

Remember, friends, that codes development is just as vulnerable to corporate influence as are all of our lawmaking bodies from local to state.

I have sometimes wondered if some products were rushed to market and listing and approval by AHJ's by that kind of influence. I won't name anything here to avoid the stigma/aura of a political post, but I would like to hear what more think about the states' feet dragging on some code changes.

Go look at the background for AFCI's? I think it was Eaton or another company that came out with them and they were about the only ones on the committee that developed the code for AFCI's?.. Makes one go, Hummmm!

That sort of thing certainly happens. But not with AFCIs. The impetus actually came from the CPSC and the breaker manufacturers followed along.

The first code requirement was actually delayed by a couple of years to allow the manufacturers time to perfect the product. Turns out a couple of years wasn't enough.

Siemens actually has a pretty good history of the issue that's not particularly biased:

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/internet-d ... istory.pdf

[Jim Baird]

My oft-used phrase is: "Follow The Money."

New home construction builders will do absolutely no more than what the local AHJ requires them to do ... no matter what the code and even 'local AHJ adopted' code says.

I gave up doing new home construction phase inspections 5 years ago as I got tired of arguing with the builder and the AHJ ... even when the AHJ adopted paperwork was presented to them.

Simply a "wink-wink" and "move along" ... there is nothing to see here.

AHJ's and new home builders (follow the money) and the handshaking going on between the two.

Sucks ...

Nolan I worked as an AHJ for several years and did a lot of battle with good ole boy types. Not all of them were well chosen. I did discriminate between owner/builders and custom/spec ones.

I saw the speculative and the custom as products being built for the public, and I strove for the public interest.

When my position was cut after the crash, the AHJ went right back to sleep.

I still think the best aspect of our codes environment is that they are developed "independently" and are not generated by public authority.

[mjr6550]

I thought that I heard that AFCI breakers have been used in Europe for many years. I could be totally wrong about that. Regardless, it seem like a good safety improvement. Time will tell.

Builders can pass along the cost, but as house prices increase they are concerned about buyers being priced out of the market. PA, and I'm sure many other states, did not adopt the requirements for fire sprinklers in residential construction.

[kurt]

"Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?"......Axel Oxenstierna

If one is building a new development of several houses, fire suppressions systems can save lots of municipal dough by reconfiguring fire departments and utilities. Sure, go for it.

OTOH, requiring a single infill house in a major metro area to be the only house among thousands to have fire suppression is kinda stupid; there's no savings to the community, only cost to the consumer.

Same with zoning. A neighborhood of noncompliant houses is seemingly fine, but if one single house applies for a variance that all the other houses have through grandfathering, the poor sucker that wants/needs the variance is dragged through hell and probably won't get the variance.

Oxenstierna had it right.

[mjr6550]

"Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?"......Axel Oxenstierna

If one is building a new development of several houses, fire suppressions systems can save lots of municipal dough by reconfiguring fire departments and utilities. Sure, go for it.

OTOH, requiring a single infill house in a major metro area to be the only house among thousands to have fire suppression is kinda stupid; there's no savings to the community, only cost to the consumer.

Same with zoning. A neighborhood of noncompliant houses is seemingly fine, but if one single house applies for a variance that all the other houses have through grandfathering, the poor sucker that wants/needs the variance is dragged through hell and probably won't get the variance.

Oxenstierna had it right.

I agree with much of that. But newer houses burn much faster than they used to. Within the past two years in my area two houses burned to the ground even though the owners were home and the fire department responded pretty quick. I did some reading about this and found that fires reach flashover much faster now. Also, virtually nobody dies in a house that has fire sprinklers.

Leave out a whirlpool bathtub and maybe a few square feet and the cost would be covered. Well, not with union labor costs.

[kurt]

Good point. I read the same information. They do burn quicker. Then again, the houses I'm talking about are not cheeseboxes; they're very substantial homes with 5/8" Type X sheetrock.

[fyrmnk]

I can attest to the much faster burn times nowadays. Much of the issue is the shear amount of "stuff" people have and it's all synthetics, which lead to the much higher heat. The other issue we have is the engineered structural components (I-joists, light weight trusses, etc.) that also burn through much faster and bring houses down much quicker. Add in improper modifications to them and it's impressive to see how fast they drop.

We keep trying to change tactics to keep up and improve outcomes, but it's always a challenge. If anyone's bored and wants to look into some of the research, look up UL/NIST Modern Fire Behavior studies that were done. Really is impressive the amount of heat. http://www.firerescue1.com/Firefighter- ... -dynamics/

[Marc]

I read that metal factory-installed gussets tend to pop off under high temperatures. Causes the entire structure to collapse more quickly when on fire, leaving the structure without any fire barriers at all.

Jersey was thinking of outlawing them in condo and apartment buildings.

Marc

[mjr6550]

I read that metal factory-installed gussets tend to pop off under high temperatures. Causes the entire structure to collapse more quickly when on fire, leaving the structure without any fire barriers at all.

Jersey was thinking of outlawing them in condo and apartment buildings.

Marc

Jersey would outlaw breathing if they could (or at least tax it).

[Jack Davenport]

Go look at the background for AFCI's? I think it was Eaton or another company that came out with them and they were about the only ones on the committee that developed the code for AFCI's?.. Makes one go, Hummmm!

Heres an interesting read on the development of the AFCI.

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/internet-d ... istory.pdf

[plummen]

I was in Whitley County, Indiana on Wednesday to look over a new house my nephew is buying. I thought it was odd that the receptacles were not tamper resistant and there were no AFCI breakers. I looked up the local code and they are not required. Nice way for builders to save a few bucks. Anyone else seeing this in new construction?

I did not find much wrong, but primer was not used on the furnace vent piping, and one joint in the attic had completely separated.

How do you know that primer wasnt used on the conections?

[plummen]

TR's are a pain in the ass even when I'm not inspecting.

We're training children to be morons.

[:-thumbu][:-thumbu][:-thumbu][:-thumbu]

[mjr6550]

I was in Whitley County, Indiana on Wednesday to look over a new house my nephew is buying. I thought it was odd that the receptacles were not tamper resistant and there were no AFCI breakers. I looked up the local code and they are not required. Nice way for builders to save a few bucks. Anyone else seeing this in new construction?

I did not find much wrong, but primer was not used on the furnace vent piping, and one joint in the attic had completely separated.

How do you know that primer wasnt used on the conections?

Typical code says the primer must be tinted purple. If I don't see purple, I assume primer was not used. They could have used clear primer. Either way, bad joint.