mold collection and labs

[kurt]

Originally posted by slinger2k

Someone tell me why, if mold is so mysterious and unproven, mold claims cost insurers more than a BILLION dollars (2001 - can't imagine what that number ballooned to over the past 4 yrs). Is the public and our higher court system that stupid that we could all be duped so easily.

Yes. Pretty much.

Then again, the $140 million decision in Texas was overturned to attorneys fees on appeals, so maybe Texans are the only one's to figure it out.

When they write the history of the universe, mold hysteria will be one of those sub-headings relegated to the "Stupidest Waste of Resources Ever" chapter.

[Bill Kibbel]

My clients rely on my opinion about the building they are going to purchase. It's my responsibility to obtain as much knowledge about anything that can have an affect on that building and its occupants. My research has indicated that mold testing is unnecessary and a complete waste of their money and that's exactly what I tell them. What difference does it make what the Latin name is. If it's visually or olfactorily detectable, get rid of it, find and correct the source of the moisture feeding it.

If they have unique health concerns and insist on testing, I make it very clear that they must steer clear of one day wonders the labs are turning out and seek an industrial hygienist that has specific education and training to perform IAQ testing. (see link below)

Mold testing is just another revenue stream.

I'm sure that statement is disturbing to those that have spent decades trying to turn our little industry into a respected profession.

www.forensic-applications.com/moulds/mvue.html

[hausdok]

again it is an additional revenue stream that has been requested by my customer base

Hmmm,

I've been doing this nearly 10 years and have never had a single client request mold sampling and I live in the western corridor of Washington State, one of the dampest, most spore infested environments in the country.

Guess I'm doing something wrong.

Well, Bill has posted a pretty substantial piece of scientific data that fellow has compiled, but it doesn't do much to bolster the mold sampling school. Is there anyone out there in the mold school who can produce anything that extensive on the 'for mold sampling' side?

Maybe it's a subliminal thing. Maybe if I say the word mold as the third word of every sentence it will put the idea into their heads. Something like, "Good afternoon. You've reached (mold) Your Inspector. This is Mike (mold) how can I help you today (mold)?

ONE TEAM - ONE (Mold) FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Brian G]

Originally posted by slinger2k

Fellas (and ladies), business to me is economics.

Yes, but we're hoping and working to be professionals, not just businessmen. A businessman has far fewer ethical considerations for how he gains business.

If my clientele wants something (such as mold sampling), I run the numbers and push forward if it appears the reward will outweigh the risk. Please don't tell me the majority of you are running your own business for the smiles, thank yous and pats on your back.

Well, we're doing it for both. They aren't mutally exclusive unless one is willing to abandon one for the other. We find we can do the right thing and still get by just fine.

I do it for what it puts in my pocket and my bank account. Same goes for the other businesses I run. We live in a fiscal world where words and actions of gratification do not pay bills.

If inspecting is nothing but dollars and cents to you, I encourage you to look for something you can care about. If any and all occupations are only dollars and cents to you, I extend my deepest sympathies. Gratitude won't pay the bills, but money can't soothe your soul.

I hope you're not about to say your spirtual life, whatever it is, is "separate" from your business life.

Someone tell me why, if mold is so mysterious and unproven, mold claims cost insurers more than a BILLION dollars (2001 - can't imagine what that number ballooned to over the past 4 yrs). Is the public and our higher court system that stupid that we could all be duped so easily.

Yes. We live in the most neurotic country in the world, with a court system that's become a high-stakes lottery (designed and operated by lawyers, for lawyers).

Lastly, the "mold game" as some of you call it represents less than 3% of my gross...again it is an additional revenue stream that has been requested by my customer base. I don't run my business as a stick in the mud - the world changing around me dictates change within.

That's called a "rationalization" (People want me to take their money for a worthless service. The world around me made me do it.)

Brian G.

Mold Lover (Especially Fried Mushrooms)

[paul burrell]

Originally posted by slinger2k

Someone tell me why, if mold is so mysterious and unproven, mold claims cost insurers more than a BILLION dollars (2001 - can't imagine what that number ballooned to over the past 4 yrs). Is the public and our higher court system that stupid that we could all be duped so easily.

Yes.

Paul Burrell

[paul burrell]

Then again, the $140 million decision in Texas was overturned to attorneys fees on appeals, so maybe Texans are the only one's to figure it out.

Let's see one third of $140 million = approximately $45 million. I know that made the defendant happy.[:-graduat

Paul Burrell

[slinger2k]

Brian,

That is what separates you from me....I am not comfortable with "get(ting) by just fine". I either excel or do not play.

Next thing you are going to tell me is that you are a card-carrying memeber of PETA.

Good luck to all of ya...whether you choose to embrace the public fervor or not.

[slinger2k]

If inspecting is nothing but dollars and cents to you, I encourage you to look for something you can care about. If any and all occupations are only dollars and cents to you, I extend my deepest sympathies. Gratitude won't pay the bills, but money can't soothe your soul.

I accept you deepest sympathies, Brian. I must be a seed of the Devil. My tanning salon caters to vanity - where's the good in that (not sure, but the money is good). My wine/liquor store speaks for itself - alcohol is bad, bad, bad. People drink whether they are rich, they are poor, healthy , or sick, depressed, or happy. Don't know where the good comes from except from the owner's draw.

[Scottpat]

My tanning salon caters to vanity - where's the good in that (not sure, but the money is good). My wine/liquor store speaks for itself - alcohol is bad, bad, bad.

Wow! The one stop shop! You can order a home inspection with mold testing, get a tan and buy your Wild Irish Rose at the same time.

Take the advice from those of us on this board who have been around the block for awhile. Most if not all of the posters are trying to help others to improve in the hopes that we can improve the perception and professionalism of our profession.

I for one have been involved in mold testing and remediation, but it has been on the prevention end. I'm hired (by other inspectors and consultants) to locate the source of the moisture, in other words; What is sustaining the mold! This IMO, is what we as home inspectors should be doing. I have over 100 hours of classroom training in mycology with about half of that being college level and about the same amount in the field experience working with an environmental/IAQ consulting firm and I'm still not going to test for mold.

Testing does not do a thing for your client other than to tell them they have mold. Most of the time they already knew that they had a mold problem.

Even the EPA and the CDC do not recommend mold testing. There are no standards like we have with Radon testing or Asbestos testing. The only standards we have are those that are set by the testing labs. Consequently the folks that are conducting the 8 hour wonder mold certifications and promoting the need for testing are the labs!

So until the Federal government steps in and establishes standards like they have done with Radon Lead and Asbestos, the mold testing home inspectors will be in the same category as the side show tonic salesman.

[chrisprickett]

Originally posted by slinger2k

Prickett...

Walk me through on how 100% ROI = no training. ROI is a numerical derivation - I can't quite figure out your statement.

That's my bad, I never use ROI calculations when figuring profitability of my business, I use cost of doing business and net profit calcs. I wrongly assumed that you meant that you made 100% profit. I save ROI calcs for my passive investments. I find it nearly impossible to get a true one-time "cost" on business related transactions. Here's why:

If you're saying that you get a 100% ROI, does that include (as your investment cost) all training, equipment, travel, wear and tear, labor costs, etc?

Many newbie inspectors make the mistake of thinking that if it costs them $100 to do an inspection and they make $200, then they have a 100% profit. They fail to take into consideration ALL the costs.

Let's take mold testing for example (numbers are for demonstration purposes only and I'm figuring year one of business):

Cost of spin dry course: $1000

Cost of addtl' insurance: $300

Cost of testing equipment: $500

Cost of lab fees: $500

TOTAL: $2300

Many would say- "it cost me $2300 and I made $4600- woohoo! 100% ROI!"

Ok, now add ALL costs:

Labor (how much is the tester paid-theat's a cost even if YOU are the tester) This includes all taxes, SSI and insurances-GL, WC, Health&Dis.

Wear & Tear on Equipment- Vehicles, testing stuff, etc.

Vehicle Fuel and maintanence

Communications (cell phone, fax, office phone)

Computer stuff

Now, do the math again. Either you're not making "100% ROI", you're doing about $50K a year in mold, or the toys in your garage aren't very big.

Oh, and to address your tanning, and liquor analogy- The difference is that I know what I'm getting in those transactions. After reading your previous posts, I highly doubt that your disclosure on mold testing reveals how actually useless the service really is.

[Brian G]

Originally posted by slinger2k

My tanning salon caters to vanity - where's the good in that (not sure, but the money is good).

Tanning is stupid, but hardly unethical.

My wine/liquor store speaks for itself - alcohol is bad, bad, bad.

As a recovering alcholic with 15 years under his belt, I disagree. There's nothing wrong with alcohol, it's some of the people who drink it that are the problem. Blaming the alcohol would be like blaming the rest of the world for making you do it.

Somehow I doubt if any of your patrons in either of those businesses is counting on you, as a professional, to steer them right since they know so little about it.

I don't see you claiming anywhere that your mold testing isn't exactly what we say it is...worthless. If you know it's worthless and you choose to take clients money for it rather than tell them the truth, doesn't that make you something of a fraud? Maybe that's the other difference between us.

Brian G.

Not a Member of PETA, By the Way [:-alien]

[hausdok]

Hi All,

Actually, it was a $32 M. settlement and it was overturned on appeal and she got less than $5 M. Here's Farmer's Insurance Group's 2003 response to a separate lawsuit she filed against them alleging libel:

LOS ANGELES, Nov. 6 /PRNewswire/ -- Farmers Insurance Group of Companies today was sued by Melinda Ballard alleging libel as a result of a defamatory and false statement. Ms. Ballard is a Farmers claimant who received an outrageous $32 million dollar award in Travis County over water leak claims on her home that she purchased in 1990 for $275,000 at a foreclosure auction. Farmers would be happy to discuss any of the details of this matter at any time. Farmers has only stated the facts of their claim to the media. Attached is a fact sheet on this claim.

Farmers Insurance Group of Companies includes the nation's third-largest home and auto insurers. Headquartered in Los Angeles and doing business in 41 states, the Farmers Insurance Group of Companies provides home, auto, business, life insurance and financial services to more than 10 million households through 17,000 exclusive and independent agents and district managers.

Ballard points from Brief -- Farmers is confident it will win its appeal of the Ballard lawsuit. -- The trial court committed numerous errors. It ignored the law, and it improperly excluded evidence in order to prevent the jury from hearing the true facts of this case. For Example: -- This case should have been tried in Hays County (not Travis County) -- where the Ballard house is located. The law is clear on that. But the judge -- who knew Ballard, and had presided over one of her prior divorces -- ignored the law simply to retain this case. -- Moreover, the trial court excluded key evidence that showed the true facts of this case. The evidence that the Court did not let the jury see, shows unequivocally that Ms. Ballard and Mr. Allison's lawsuit was without any merit, and that their insurance claim and lawsuit were, from the start, designed solely to make money -- not to repair their house. -- The contractor that Ms. Ballard first contacted to repair her hardwood floor testified that he would have repaired the floor for $89,289. Ms. Ballard, however, told him his estimate was too low, and had him raise his bid to $127,950 before she submitted it to Farmers. -- Ms. Ballard then obtained other, higher bids (ranging from $139,794.14 to $171,844.50).

These bids were created simply by taking the inflated $127,950 bid and adding more overhead and profit to it. -- Finally, Ms. Ballard submitted a bid from "Boessling Floors" in the amount of $194,269. Ms. Ballard falsely represented that "Boessling Floors" was recommended to her by and Austin architect, Dick Clark, and that "Boessling Floors" came to her house to inspect her floor, and bid $194,000 to repair it. In reality, there is NO "Boessling Floors". Mr. Boessling manufactures pool tables. He never heard of an architect named Dick Clark, and never had been to Ms. Ballard's house. The "Boessling Floors" bid was actually a "dummy bid" created to make the other inflated bids appear more reasonable. -- The trial court excluded this evidence, and permitted the jury to believe that the inflated and fabricated bids submitted by Ms. Ballard were legitimate. -- While Ms. Ballard claimed at trial her fear of "toxic mold" in her house, she told her public adjuster that she would "snort stachybotrys if that what it took to hurt" Farmers. The trial judge excluded this evidence from the jury, and instead permitted the jury to award Ms. Ballard $5,000,000 for "mental anguish" that she claimed was caused by the mold in her house, and by Farmers not paying her on the highest of her inflated bids that she submitted. -- Ms. Ballard claimed that mold from under her hardwood floor contaminated her entire house.

The trial court, however, refused to let Farmers' expert testify to the fact that test results showed that no mold was, in fact, growing under Ballard's floor and therefore Ballard's claim was false. -- Ms. Ballard claimed that Farmers delayed in adjusting her claim. The fact is, she filed 14 separate water claims between December 1998 and September 2000. (She claimed that all of the buildings on her property incurred toxic mold damage.) Farmers adjusted each of Ms. Ballard's claims as they were made, and paid on those claims as they came in. -- The trial court excluded evidence that Ballard intentionally obstructed Farmers' efforts to adjust her claims. -- Ballard claimed that Farmers failed to make a good faith attempt to settle her claim, and the Court let the jury award Ballard $12 million in punitive damages. -- The true facts are that less than two months after mold was first discovered in her home, Farmers and Ballard had a mediation. At that time, Ballard's experts claimed that it would cost $1 million to remediate the entire house. Farmers' experts thought it would cost approximately $400,000. -- Farmers offered Ballard $734,000 in settlement. -- Ballard's response was that she demanded $10 million to settle just her property claims, and that she retain "media rights". -- The jury never heard this evidence.

Now google Melinda Ballard and read some of the, Oh, so sympathetic news stories about her case that leave out all of the stuff that would show everyone what was really going on. She was the one, the Messiah whose actions set into motion the lawyers and labs with their outrageous ads which drew so many people into this business from who knows where just so they could ride the mold is gold wagon.

She sounds like such a sweet lady.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

P.S.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure that Farmer's is wording this to make them look like the guys who wear white hats but, if these are the facts than the whole genesis of the mold business was predicated more on greed than on anything else. Just my opinion, I'm still waiting for that scientific rebuttal that can be proven from the mold sampling side.

[slinger2k]

Brian...

I agree tanning is dumb and it has no bearing on the "greater good", but that is what you appeared to be angling toward - our actions and the consequences toward the greater good. The alcohol comment was "tongue in cheek" - stop taking everything so literally. Selling alcohol doesn't improve the welfare of my community, however, I still move forward because it is profitable to me.

I don't see how sampling a fuzzy substance with the intent to identify conclusively whether or not the substance is a type of mold is unethical. If someone is willing to pay me to aid with the process, I'm going to do it - it is a desired product. That is all I do with concern to mold sampling - take a sample, send it to a lab, report whether or not it is mold. My clientele understands that process from onset of the appointment. I am only a messenger. That doesn't make me a fraud.

I don't claim to know the thought process of my clients, so calling something "worthless" is your opinion. Obvoiusly, my customers believe the knowing is better than not, or they would not have called me.

Chris...

I don't use ROI calcs to decide whether I'm profitable or not. ROI is what it is. Thank you for pointing out overhead, so the number plummmets to 40%..still a respectable revenue stream. $50k in mold revs equates to $1.7M in gross sales - not getting that here with a one-team operation. Toys are toys...didn't infer that it was a 75 ft yacht (who's going to put that in their garage anyway).

Scott...

Testing does not do a thing for your client other than to tell them they have mold. Most of the time they already knew that they had a mold problem.

You hit the nail on the head...mold sampling only tells the client whether or not they have mold - exactly what the client paid me to do. Bravo.

dok....

if these are the facts than the whole genesis of the mold business was predicated more on greed than on anything else. Just my opinion, I'm still waiting for that scientific rebuttal that can be proven from the mold sampling side.

So be it, and until the media reverses the hysteria they may have caused I will continue to sample what appears to mold with the intention of ONLY identifying it to the client.

Guys, I'm not losing any sleep over this. I am only capitalizing on a trend, whether or not the trend continues in the same direction, we can only wait and see. I can just as easily disassemble my pump and use it for something in the shop when the time arrives.

[chrisprickett]

I don't use ROI calcs to decide whether I'm profitable or not. ROI is what it is. Thank you for pointing out overhead, so the number plummmets to 40%..still a respectable revenue stream. $50k in mold revs equates to $1.7M in gross sales - not getting that here with a one-team operation. Toys are toys...didn't infer that it was a 75 ft yacht (who's going to put that in their garage anyway).

Ok, so 100% ROI is now 40%, and we've now determined that the "toys" ain't so big (again, my bad- I have one "toy" worth about $17k, I wrongly assumed that your "toys" would be worth at least that much). Well, as long as you're honest and straight-forward with your clients...

[Brian G]

Originally posted by slinger2k

I agree tanning is dumb and it has no bearing on the "greater good", but that is what you appeared to be angling toward - our actions and the consequences toward the greater good.

Yeah, pretty much. The greater good of the profession, the client, and in my opinion for the HI as well. You simply can't compare tanning or selling alcohol with doing home inspections. Clients are relying on us to help them where they have little or no knowledge and are vunerable. If they knew the whole truth about mold sampling almost no one would waste their money on it. When they ask we should tell them.

The alcohol comment was "tongue in cheek" - stop taking everything so literally.

If you're kidding slap a smiley on there for Pete's sake. I can't see your face or hear your voice for clues. [:-blindfo

Selling alcohol doesn't improve the welfare of my community, however, I still move forward because it is profitable to me.

Charming.

I don't see how sampling a fuzzy substance with the intent to identify conclusively whether or not the substance is a type of mold is unethical. If someone is willing to pay me to aid with the process, I'm going to do it - it is a desired product.

I think it's unethical if you know the service is meaningless. Sort of like doctors who keep running up the bill with more testing after they know what the problem is.

That is all I do with concern to mold sampling - take a sample, send it to a lab, report whether or not it is mold. My clientele understands that process from onset of the appointment.

Obviously they don't understand the larger issues or they wouldn't waste money on it.

I am only a messenger. That doesn't make me a fraud.

Okay, it makes you a willing party to the fraud. Better?

I don't claim to know the thought process of my clients, so calling something "worthless" is your opinion. Obvoiusly, my customers believe the knowing is better than not, or they would not have called me.

My opinion is shared by everyone in the IAQ field, the CDC, the EPA, and every respected peer I can think of. The only people I know who defend the practice are those who profit from it. As far as knowing, I can answer that over the phone. Yeah, it's mold. Clean it up, find and cure the moisture problem, and you'll be fine.

So you're gonna do what you're gonna do, and we're gonna do likewise. Why not go for the trifecta and offer feng shui and hostile spirit removal as well?

Brian G.

Coming Soon...House Psycology! Let Me Help You Better Understand How Your House Feels ($95 per hour, 3 hour minimum)

[Les]

Slinger, I always pay attention to someone who is making money. Making money is my goal in life and every once in awhile I have to bend my rules and standards. It makes me feel good to do meaningless things and get money!

I have a couple of toys, nothing worth more than $10,000, other than my hair shirt.

I can tell you this - I am proud of this industry and most of the folks in it. I likely assist in the "prosecution/persecution" of more inspectors than the average inspector and love to see this attitude in inspectors that work only for money.

Seeings how you brought it up - Where are you located and can I buy the Brooklyn Bridge from you?

[slinger2k]

My apologies Mike. Exorcision? done.

Frosty,

If the curiousity still exists...I work with BTS Laboratories (www.btslabs.com), a subsidiary of Rx Solutions International. Alex Bako, one of the managing directors of Rx, is recognized by the American Board of Industrial Hygiene as a CIH (Certified Industrial Hygiene) - I guess NOT everyone shares the same view as some on this forum. BTS offers training for samplers, as well as, equipment purchasing. They are very easy to deal with and have not yet had problems referring client questions to their lab staff.

Pricing is left up to you. We price every product line with its relation to time (and material cost when the product is an ancilliary inspection - radon, water analysis, etc.). We have a $xx/hr. target we try to reach with all our inspections. As you do more inspections, you will get a better feel for the time required to complete the action.

In an unrelated topic...Les, I saw this on eBay

http://www.matthearn.com/ebay.html

I might be able to come up w/ the add'l $1604.01 (I 'll take it from my mold sampling piggy bank) to make your bid an even $54.4M. LOL[:-slaphap

[Les]

Slinger - I am liking you a little more now. Thanks for the offer, maybe I could get a couple of the guys to inspect it!

[hausdok]

Yeah,

At least he's standing his ground and going toe-to-toe with everyone. You've got to give him props for that.

Frosty,

This might work as a lesson in the way that this (and other) home inspector boards work. Namely, if you want a specific question about a particular topic answered, you'll need to assume that your thread is going to drift unless you make it perfectly clear up front that you're not interested in hearing anyone's opinion as to why the subject you're interested in is a bad idea. Otherwise, the thread can turn into a free-for-all very quickly and sometimes, though thankfully not too often, deteriorate into something pretty negative.

In this case, I have to take full responsibility for allowing this one to go where it did, because I sort of got the ball rolling in the wrong direction and for that I'm sorry.

In future, I'll try to keep my unsolicited opinion to myself and stay on topic (I can hear all of the, "Yeah, right O'Handley, like that's gonna last for more than a minute," now). Just don't expect any miracles. This is, after all, a discussion forum populated by persons who make a living stating their own opinions on a given subject to others. Many of the folks here are totally committed to this profession and its future. Expecting us to completely refrain from speaking to something that we feel so strongly about is like expecting a politician not to pan for cameras. Odds are, it won't last for long.

OT - OF!!!

Mike

[kurt]

See? Everything about mold is messy. Even talking about it creates a mess.

[Les]

nobody does this as eloquently and as sneaky as Mike. He kinda makes you appreciate the freedom we have in our speech.

[paul burrell]

Originally posted by hausdok

Yeah,

Frosty,

This might work as a lesson in the way that this (and other) home inspector boards work. Namely, if you want a specific question about a particular topic answered, you'll need to assume that your thread is going to drift unless you make it perfectly clear up front that you're not interested in hearing anyone's opinion as to why the subject you're interested in is a bad idea. Otherwise, the thread can turn into a free-for-all very quickly and sometimes, though thankfully not too often, deteriorate into something pretty negative.

Amen and ain't dat de truth.[:-slaphap

Paul Burrell