Adhered Stone Masonry Veneer problems??

[Erby]

Someone goofed the installation of the adhered stone masonry veneer.

Yes, brand spanking, never been lived in, new house with water stained structural framing and water rotted subfloor at the stone veneer front.

Anyone know of a way to fix it without ripping it off?

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[Jim Baird]

...new construction?

I have not seen brick w/lick'n'stick b4.

As this is a tech forum I will stay mum on aesthetics.

Answer to question is no.

[Erby]

I don't do aesthetics either Jim. My wife assures me I have no taste.

But I think the builder will direct his expletives (and likely his costs) in the right direction, the installer.

[BADAIR]

not necessarily an Adhered Manufactured Stone Veneer (AMSV) installer issue if the contract was written for "to be installed by others" waterproofing, flashing and wrb...which is often seen

the amsv contractor may only be responsible for the sacrificial wrb, lath, brown-scratch & asmv app

regardless "latent defect" can't be fixed from the visible surface...remove, properly weather-air proof & restart with a good grasp of the manual & better supervision

[Steven Hockstein]

I am amused (and somewhat nauseated) at the way installers use applied synthetic stone veneer. There is no thought given to the material that it is trying to emulate. My favorite is when it is installed on cantilevers.

[kurt]

I've seen it where the first floor is wood siding and the entire upper floor is "stone".

The Holy Triumvirate of Simplicity, Honesty, and Propriety is nowhere to be seen with this material.

[Erby]

Ah well, the buyer is happier than hell that it was found when it was still the builder's responsibility. That's all I care about.

[StevenT]

MSV follows the same rules as Stucco. The primary point of failure is the missing kickout flashing. So whatever they do, if that is not corrected it will recur.

A kickout flashing can be installed without ripping everything off. How is everything else? How many wrb(s) are there?

[Erby]

I disagree Steven re the primary point of failure but certainly agree that the kickout flashing can be installed without ripping everything off.

However, the worst of the leaking (were the subfloor is water damaged the most) is at the far side of the veneer, by the door. I doubt that the missing kickout flashing would have helped that far away.

There should be two WRB but the way it's installed, you can't see behind it to determine what's going on back there.

How would you determine how many WRB are present?

[StevenT]

I disagree Steven re the primary point of failure but certainly agree that the kickout flashing can be installed without ripping everything off.

However, the worst of the leaking (were the subfloor is water damaged the most) is at the far side of the veneer, by the door. I doubt that the missing kickout flashing would have helped that far away.

There should be two WRB but the way it's installed, you can't see behind it to determine what's going on back there.

How would you determine how many WRB are present?

Hi Erby,

It's fine to disagree, and

i don't doubt you since you looked at the entire site up close and I only see a few pics of what I assumed represented the troubled area. In the pics I see, I clearly notice a failed kickout being fed by quite a bit of roof and dead valley. It was wrong of me to assume that the photos were highlighting the troubled area.

Sometimes it's quite tricky and almost impossible to confirm complete wrb(s). Sometimes it's easier to deny. Usually I find suggestions as to what is there, since my opinion is most often based upon a representative number of probes, and the declared assumption that what is found in one area is usually an indication of how the entire job was done.

I usually take core samples (if helpful at various heights).

This is today's evaluation.

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This is one of today's core samples. What I confirmed at this location is a single layer of tarpaper. If I would have found two layers, I would have taken an additional sample at a different height to attempt to confirm or deny that I was (wasn't) on an overlap. Additionally, since I was near the bottom of the system, an overlap would have been less likely.

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This is a second core sample that confirmed EPS adhesively attached directly on plywood (no wrb)

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Here is another:

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[Les]

Steven, what am I looking at in photo one?

[kurt]

I'm jealous. Wouldn't it be great if we could always take core samples as part of the job?

[Erby]

Yeah, and a sledge hammer into some of the walls to see what's back there, just like Mike Holmes does.

[StevenT]

Photo 1 is a one family home built in circa 1993. It was originally 100% EIFS (Barrier). As per homeowner, approx 8 years ago (approx) 50% of the EIFS was replaced with MSV.

[StevenT]

I'm jealous. Wouldn't it be great if we could always take core samples as part of the job?

Tomorrow's evaluation is even better.

3000 sf home on the beach (Long Island Sound).

The new GC called me and explaind that the rear of the house (which overlooks the Sound has eroded and is taking in water. He added that 3 other... contractors ("experts") attempted to "fix" the problem and were unable to.

Currently, someone installed vinyl siding over the EIFS to attempt (unsuccessfully) to keep the water out.

I have been asked to evaluate the entire home and oversee the design and installation of the new watershed/system.

Tomorrow the vinyl is being removed and if there is anything else I see. There will be people there to remove any portions I request.

Today (3,000 sf, with a helper) took 9 hours.

[mjr6550]

Short answer-no. Can't fix what is behind the stone. It will only get worse.

[StevenT]

Short answer-no. Can't fix what is behind the stone. It will only get worse.

Are you recommending the home be condemned?

[Scottpat]

I have an AMSV inspection this Thursday? I call it "Bumpy" Stucco! I'm seeing the same Red Flags that we had with EIFS when it started rearing its ugly head back in the late 1990's.

[Mark P]

Looking for opinions on what this material is.

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[mjr6550]

Short answer-no. Can't fix what is behind the stone. It will only get worse.

Are you recommending the home be condemned?

No. Just remove the manufactured stone, fix the damage, and install new siding with proper flashing and WRB. Its done all the time around here. About $30,000 plus for a front and about $100,000 to $200,000 for a full house.

[BADAIR]

Looking for opinions on what this material is.

appears to be acmv

Adhered Manufactured Stone Veneer (AMSV) ? lightweight, architectural, non load-bearing product that is manufactured by wet cast blending cementitious materials and aggregates, with or without pigments, admixtures, or other materials to simulate the appearance of natural stone and other masonry materials.

Note: The MVMA recognizes there are many names used to describe Adhered Manufactured Stone Veneer products. Adhered Manufactured Stone Veneer is used commonly throughout the industry and by some manufacturers. In the International Building Code, Adhered Manufactured Stone Veneer products are referred to as Adhered Masonry Veneer. In the ICC-ES Acceptance Criteria, AC51, the product

is called Precast Stone Veneer. This guide will use AMSV (Adhered Manufactured Stone Veneer) when referencing the product.

http://ncma-br.org/pdfs/masterlibrary/M ... 20Prtg.pdf

natural stone veneer or wythe aren't usually smoother cut on the backside

finding full or partial loose pieces falling off the structure or adhered to what appears to be an im/proper brown coat stucco application is usually a great clue you're at an acmv install

[John Kogel]

Thanks, Barry. I just call it "faux stone"(like fool stone).

[Bob K]

This is a complete cluster --- if I've ever seen one! Screw the kick out flashing. You can't even see the baby tins for the shingles against the roof to wall. Probably no head or sill flashings.

Tell the contractor to strip it off because he's an idiot. You need a rain screen. Not too fancy. Strip out the exterior with furring and then install a substrate which you glue the stone. He can vent the rain screen through a simple flashing detail up in the gables.

Better yet, tell you client to walk and take the money. We will learn how to extract the project's precious metals from the landfill in the future anyway. It's great for repair guys like me to find this work , but, come on!

[Erby]

Realized today when reading Kurt's stuff about kick out flashing that I never updated the results of this new construction inspection.

Went back a month later for a reinspection.

The stone installer said the original installation was by Kentucky Code as they don't follow the national code and apparently had never heard of the MVMA.

The builders solution was this.

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Not much else they had agreed to fix was fixed either.

The buyer wanted to walk. The buyer's agent said they could find a builder that was a little more cooperative on fixes. He walked and a couple of months later found a much better built new construction house a block away (*with no AMSV).

When I was by there a month or so ago, the house still had the stone and was still on the market.

Go figure.

[Marc]

I'll bet a bundle the contractor meant to say it had passed code inspection. Passing code inspection and code compliance are two different things. The difference between them is politics.

I seriously doubt that installation was code compliant.

Marc