Whats wrong

[David Meiland]

Old Sailor, in my humble and unsolicited opinion, you are guilty of one small thing, which is not fitting into the existing culture of this web forum. I think it is necessary to read for a while first (perhaps you have) and then start posting in a way that fits in. You're a bit outside of that. You can easily fit in and contribute here, but learn who the others are and how things are done.

My shop heater has a fan and I'm sure one leg of the 240 carries a bit more current to run the fan. I didn't check the amp draw on each leg because that would mean opening another box of toys. I'm curious, though, wouldn't most electric ranges have at least a clock, if not other stuff, running on 120, meaning that there is always unequal draw? Not sure how much this would impact conductor temperature difference. And, when you see a delta T, how is it known that the panel is the issue--could it not be at the appliance, where the receptacle is connected, in the contact between the receptacle and the appliance connector blades, or even within the appliance itself?

Seems like, from an inspection standpoint, you could include a boilerplate section that covered the tightening of terminals in panels. Most electricians re-tighten everything when they are in an existing panel, because things do loosen (or were never very tight to begin with).

My camera is a Fluke Ti32, bought when they were introduced, now about 5 years old and has never failed me.

[kurt]

...........how is it known that the panel is the issue--could it not be at the appliance, where the receptacle is connected, in the contact between the receptacle and the appliance connector blades, or even within the appliance itself?

Yep. I've tracked this stuff down in so many different directions without being able to unequivocally identify the culprit(s), I've stopped caring about minor delta between conductors, and FTR, I think anything <10degF is minor. If someone's got a reference that says that's wrong, I'm all ears.

........because things do loosen (or were never very tight to begin with).

Yep again. The whole "loosen due to use" thing is a new one for me.

My camera is a Fluke Ti32, bought when they were introduced, now about 5 years old and has never failed me.

Same here. Question....do your batteries have that "charge indicator" light on them? Mine do, but the lights have never worked.

[SNations]

I generally look down on guys that post questions here when they already have answers.

I am not your student.

Marc

Amen, brother.

Old Sailor, you've got a nice camera, and I'm sure you like putting it to good use. When I go a long time without my IR showing anything of interest I get a little impatient, and sometimes I start to see things that aren't really there. Over-diagnosis starts to be real problem.

There was a study done a few years ago showing that older people with knee pain had MRI's showing problems. Then they took random people off the street with no knee problems and did MRI's. They found that 85% of all people had MRI's that showed problems. So clearly this imaging tool was leading to over-diagnosis simply because it showed something that wasn't perfect.

I don't think that a 7 F temperature difference is a problem. And I'm not aware of any epidemic of fires on electric range circuits.

And I don't think that your IR images even help to diagnose the source of the "issue". By any chance did you repeat any of your IR imaging after tightening the connection at the breaker? You'd need to do this to help confirm that tightening the connection had done any good at all.

[David Meiland]

Same here. Question....do your batteries have that "charge indicator" light on them? Mine do, but the lights have never worked.

They do, they work, and I rely on them. I always pull the battery and check the charge before powering up. If the unit sits awhile, the battery can be near dead and you only get a few minutes before it shuts off.

[Old Sailor]

I generally look down on guys that post questions here when they already have answers.

I am not your student.

Marc

Amen, brother.

Old Sailor, you've got a nice camera, and I'm sure you like putting it to good use. When I go a long time without my IR showing anything of interest I get a little impatient, and sometimes I start to see things that aren't really there. Over-diagnosis starts to be real problem.

There was a study done a few years ago showing that older people with knee pain had MRI's showing problems. Then they took random people off the street with no knee problems and did MRI's. They found that 85% of all people had MRI's that showed problems. So clearly this imaging tool was leading to over-diagnosis simply because it showed something that wasn't perfect.

I don't think that a 7 F temperature difference is a problem. And I'm not aware of any epidemic of fires on electric range circuits.

And I don't think that your IR images even help to diagnose the source of the "issue". By any chance did you repeat any of your IR imaging after tightening the connection at the breaker? You'd need to do this to help confirm that tightening the connection had done any good at all.

Well I think I have accomplished my mission I have people discussing a issue even if you agree or disagree.

I have made the electric cook stove my personal study. I have tested my theory by checking the terminals before and after the scan.

I stand behind my statement that any temp above 4 degrees differential is the beginning stage of a loose connection and I agree it can be at the breaker or at the appliance it is turned over to the electrician to determine where the loose connection is located is not really my concern as a inspector.

Some are doubting this theory but I have found different ranges of temp on the terminals starting at the 3 to 4 degree range all the way to wires that were actually arching. To be truthful I have never found significant temp differentials on any other double pole breaker. A/C unit, Dryer, Electric WH only the electric cook stove and I base this on the constant on and off of the elements that are maintaining set temp which is constantly changing the amp draw on the circuit VS other appliances when they operate the amperage is constant either on or off. I am not saying this is created overnight it takes time sometimes years depending on usage of the stove. I have this documented over several years and I still have all the images stored

If you own a IR Camera you don't have to believe me run your own test over time

As the gentleman stated above I probably don't fit into this forum but I am a little to old to change my ways

[Marc]

I don't doubt your finding about loose breaker connections involving cook stove circuits.

Few ever fit here perfectly at first. They have to tune in. Took me about three years[:-paperba

Marc

[Chad Fabry]

Well I think I have accomplished my mission I have people discussing a issue even if you agree or disagree.

As the gentleman stated above I probably don't fit into this forum but I am a little to old to change my ways

The only mission here is the individual pursuit of excellence. The topic you introduced is interesting, debatable, and I bet some of us never considered the topic. I can speak only for myself: your presentation was condescending and baiting. Most of us have "water under the bridge", and like you, we're a fairly seasoned group. Had you asked, " Have any of you noticed a small delta t between the legs supplying a range-top indicate that there is an identifiable connection issue?", you would have sparked

(sparked, ha, an inspection pun) an excellent conversation.

If you're too old to change your ways, you're too old to learn. And, you're never too old to learn.

We're mostly silverbacks. You're baiting us with inspection school scenarios.

[Jim Baird]

Old sailor, hope your skin is thick enough after so many years before the mast that these guys don't send you over the gunwales in search of a lifeboat. "...You're on a lee shore, Silver...--Capn Smollet"

[Les]

Jim, you must admit this is a tough crowd! There are none better in the world than you find here!

And, we know how to laugh at ourselves and enjoy others.

[Erby]

Ya gotta remember, Charlie. That other place you mentioned has a bunch of new guys trying to learn and a lot of bickering, etc.

Ain't the case here. Just gotta phrase the questions a little different.

Inspection school level baiting doesn't fly very far here.

Stick around, you'll learn and teach both.