Stick on Stone

[Les]

http://www.jlconline.com/exteriors/stic ... -eifs.aspx

I would like to know what others are finding in the field.

I believe this issue is going to be larger than the eifs problems. The stone work is very popular here, yet I have never seen it done right. In fact, I have seen entire sub-divisions where it is cracked through and through on every house.

[Mark P]

I know that the relocation companies that contract me are very concerned with this and sometimes send me out to a house just to identify if the clading is ACMV. In fact I have a job next week just for that purpose. However, I do not see ACMV very often and when I do I have not found signs of a water intrusion problem. But who knows what it will look like in 20 years.

[Bryan]

I believe this issue is going to be larger than the eifs problems.

Les,

I personally believe this will be the case. Our work is mainly commercial and multi family; in which I have seen failures, and in a project we are currently monitoring, they will be removing the stone form the entire first level for incorrect installation.

I have some photos of a apartment complex with failures i will try to dig up and post.

[kurt]

I think Parlee's right. I don't see it much, but in times I have seen it, it's just stuck to the building on stucco lath over tyvek.

[Ben H]

As soon as I get the all clear from my guys attorney, I plan on posting lots of good info with pics for you guys. 3 yr old house 100k of damage from lick and stick stuff. It was nasty.

My guy knew he had a issue when the curtain rod fell off the wall from the drywall being too soft to hold it anymore.

[StevenT]

I regularly inspect MSV. Its installation and evaluation is similar to stucco, so when evaluating it, look for the same.

Like Mark, I seldom (occasionally) find signs of water damage when evaluating MSV, which may be because MSV usually covers less area as compared to EIFS (or other claddings).

Most water infiltration originates at penetrations and transitions. Windows are the most frequent penetrations. More area usually means more windows to allow for water intrusion.

[mjr6550]

I have been involved with dozens of tear-offs of stucco and manufactured stone. Also many inspections. Here are photos from an inspection this past Thursday.

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[BADAIR]

do many for relos & independent msv or acmv eifs stucco specialty ahead of or behind unwilling home inspectors

mostly misapplied with moisture intrusion issues

often appears intentional for today's disposable housing consumers

[Les]

Barry,

why are home inspectors wary? This seems to be an easy issue for inspectors. EIFS is more difficult to observe, or is it?

[Mark P]

http://ncma-br.org/pdfs/masterlibrary/M ... %20web.pdf

I tried uploading the file, but it did not work. Maybe someone else can figure it out. Regardless here is the link to a usefull document on the subject of AMSV.

[mlparham]

http://ncma-br.org/pdfs/masterlibrary/MVMA%20Installation%20Guide%204th%20Edition%20web.pdf

I tried uploading the file, but it did not work. Maybe someone else can figure it out. Regardless here is the link to a usefull document on the subject of AMSV.

That's a 68 page document. I sure hope that the installation instructions that are provided with the products are a lot less tortuous.

[BADAIR]

Barry,

why are home inspectors wary? This seems to be an easy issue for inspectors. EIFS is more difficult to observe, or is it?

Les

neither is difficult if you know what you're doing and have the protocol required tools & testing equipment

limited market usage & uncommon products scare many

my niche here is mostly out of TREC scope; i get a lot of inspector referrals for specialty msv, eifs, stucco, construction phase, infrared & commercial

so far all the relos i do require edi certification, very few here have this

relos don't pay at time of inspection, average pay arrives 30 days max

some are leery even with corps especially certain ones that have been negatively reviewed on message boards...i've consider the source & tested the waters before passing judgement

my experience has been nothing but good even from those w/neg reviews by others

If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.

Red Adair

[mjr6550]

I am wary because there can be tons of damage to walls and often there is little to no sign of a problem inside the house. Of course, the visible installation details are always wrong.

[Ben H]

http://ncma-br.org/pdfs/masterlibrary/MVMA%20Installation%20Guide%204th%20Edition%20web.pdf

I tried uploading the file, but it did not work. Maybe someone else can figure it out. Regardless here is the link to a usefull document on the subject of AMSV.

That's a 68 page document. I sure hope that the installation instructions that are provided with the products are a lot less tortuous.

That was one the things that blew me away. I wasn't able to find a install guide for the stuff the builder used on the lawsuit house. I called the manufacture and was told they do not offer a guide, but recommend using the one Mark posted.

[hausdok]

I've been writing this issue up for years and referring clients to that document that Mark posted about - well, ever since that document was first published in 2009 and was called something else.

The Masonry Veneer Manufacturing Association was formed in 2007 and two years later they published that guidelines book. I think their last update was early in 2014. I believe they formed that association for one thing only - to avoid being pulled into litigation.

Before they published that book you could call a manufacturer and ask for their individual instructions and for direct comments. Now when I call a manufacturer I get the runaround and I get referred to that set of guidelines. So, you think there's an issue and you point it out to the client in the report. The client calls the builder and the builder insists it's "to code", so the client decides to call the local code guy to confirm. When the client gets the local code guy on the phone the local code guys points out that all the code says is that the product must be installed in accordance with manufacturer's instructions; so, since he doesn't have any instructions he relies on the builder or contractor to follow manufacturer's instructions and as far as he is concerned the stuff is installed to code. The client then asks why, if the stuff is installed to code, did the home inspector write it up? The code guy shrugs his shoulders and probably says something like, "Well, those private inspectors write up anything they can to justify their reports."

The client is not satisfied so he contacts the manufacturer of the fake stone and gets their technical assistance department on the phone and explains his (client's) conundrum. The manufacturer says, "Don't know why there's any confusion about it; we published clear guidelines for how it is to be installed years ago," and the rep gives the client the URL to the ASTM compliance document that Mark posted.

The client thinks, "Finally, I'm getting somewhere," he checks out the link and now he can see exactly why the home inspector has written up that issue. The client prints off a copy of that document; and then, document in hand he runs back to the build site and presents it to the site super with a triumphant, "There, I told you my inspector was right and you wouldn't believe me."

The site super doesn't accept the booklet and says, "Yeah, I've seen that. Did you bother to read the fine print?" The client looks confused. The site super takes the booklet, opens it up to page 3 - Disclaimers and reads aloud to the client,

"This Guide addresses generally accepted methods and details for the installation of Adhered Manufactured Stone Veneer. To the best of our knowledge, it is correct and up to date. However, the document is designed only as a guide; and it is not intended for any specific construction project. The MVMA and NCMA makes no express or implied warranty

or guarantee of the techniques, construction methods or materials identified herein. It is understood that there are alternative means or methods that might be required and/or recommended based on project conditions, manufacturer?s recommendations, or product characteristics.

This Guide for builders, architects, designers, masons, installers and other construction professionals illustrates typical applications of Adhered Manufactured Stone Veneer. Details in this guide that address the installation and detailing of Adhered Manufactured Stone Veneer and its interface with other building components are not intended as specific recommendations. It is the responsibility of all design and construction professionals to determine the applicability and appropriate application of any detail to any specific project." "So you see," says the site super, "I have full confidence in Joe, the contractor that applied this stuff. He says that he's installing it in accordance with the manufacturer's guidance and that's good enough for me. We're not doing anything to, as your so-called inspector says, "Correct it," without proof that it's installed wrong. As far as we are concerned, it is in compliance with the code."

Check mate. The client is stuck until/unless he can get the manufacturer to come out, inspect the install and declare it not done in accordance with the installation instructions. Whey would he do such a thing; he's already referred the client to the only document to which all of the manufacturers have agreed to refer callers; doing anything else might open up a whole can of worms - pull him into any lawsuit as a potential witness, piss off the builder so he buys his product from another manufacturer, get him fired for doing something stupid, etc. Nah, he's not going to come out and the homeowner is on his own.

All we can do is write it up; using the MVMA document to point out those areas that don't comply with the ASTM standard, and hope that if/when there is an issue the homeowner remembers and understands that we - inspectors - were the ones who tried to point out to him/her that as far as we were concerned the stuff was installed wrong and was going to be an issue - and we won't get pulled into any litigation.

I do something else besides, "I explain the avoidance of responsibility loop that the client will run into if the builder refuses to correct the stuff and he tries to run it down. I use the example above. I then tell the client to ask for all corrections in writing and insist on all responses in writing. I tell the client to keep an eye on the veneer and keep an eye on his neighbors' houses; because if it ever goes bad - either on the client's home or a neighbor's home - the client is going to have the evidence needed to show that at least one resident pointed out the issue and was rebuffed by the builder's rep despite having been given the best possible reference available at the time. I bet attorneys love that kind of thing - or, maybe now.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Jim Baird]

Thanks Mike, for the summing up.

[Les]

Thanks Mike, for the summing up.

Jim,

do I have to come down there and straighten you up? Summary?. O'Handley?. He does good work, but he needs an editor!

Only guy I know that wears the characters off his keyboard.

[Scottpat]

I had a Trifecta yesterday!

AMSV, EIFS and Vinyl cladding all on one home! All three were leaking or improperly installed. The AMSV was the "dry-stack" look, it was buried into the ground, no weep screed, etc..

The EIFS had no sealants at any penetration and the EPS boards were never rasped, base coat was too thin and it butted right up to the AMSV with the EPS board being visible at the corners.

The vinyl was a train wreck with improperly installed "J" channels(cut too short) and leaking into the walls due to no WRB. Home was built 3 years ago!

It was also ugly!

[Jim Baird]

Thanks Mike, for the summing up.

Jim,

do I have to come down there and straighten you up? Summary?. O'Handley?. He does good work, but he needs an editor!

Only guy I know that wears the characters off his keyboard.

Picky, picky, picky.

Not so much an editor as a proofreader.

Scott, I haven't seen very many with such media mixes that were not ugly.

[Les]

I had a Trifecta yesterday!

AMSV, EIFS and Vinyl cladding all on one home! All three were leaking or improperly installed. The AMSV was the "dry-stack" look, it was buried into the ground, no weep screed, etc..

The EIFS had no sealants at any penetration and the EPS boards were never rasped, base coat was too thin and it butted right up to the AMSV with the EPS board being visible at the corners.

The vinyl was a train wreck with improperly installed "J" channels(cut too short) and leaking into the walls due to no WRB. Home was built 3 years ago!

It was also ugly!

And it is all your fault! I am in this business a few years and have adapted to lots of materials and their installation. The AMSV is the most difficult. EIFS is usually so concealed that your client has to believe you, until it can be torn into and proved. AMSV is really obvious to me, but most clients can't seem to understand what we are trying to tell them.

o

I'm sure some of the lack of understanding is us, but most of the time we have to work around the client "just loves the look", regardless of how many times we show them the crack!

[hausdok]

Thanks Mike, for the summing up.

Jim,

do I have to come down there and straighten you up? Summary?. O'Handley?. He does good work, but he needs an editor!

Only guy I know that wears the characters off his keyboard.

Not just the characters. You know those little nubs on the F and the J keys that are supposed to allow a blind person to correctly position their fingers on the keyboard - those are also worn completely away. If I look at the keyboard to type I have to guess where the keys are and hope that I hit them. When I keep my eyes on the screen I almost always hit the correct ones.

[hausdok]

I'm sure some of the lack of understanding is us, but most of the time we have to work around the client "just loves the look", regardless of how many times we show them the crack!

Eww!

You're going around showing the client your crack and they love the look of it?!!!

Feeling a little sick to my tummy now.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[mark parlee]

I had a Trifecta yesterday!

AMSV, EIFS and Vinyl cladding all on one home! All three were leaking or improperly installed. The AMSV was the "dry-stack" look, it was buried into the ground, no weep screed, etc..

The EIFS had no sealants at any penetration and the EPS boards were never rasped, base coat was too thin and it butted right up to the AMSV with the EPS board being visible at the corners.

The vinyl was a train wreck with improperly installed "J" channels(cut too short) and leaking into the walls due to no WRB. Home was built 3 years ago!

It was also ugly!

Scott

Those are the ones I like to get involved with.

My article was written on a 14 year old home. This defective installation of the AMV cost the builder 30K plus. He also signed a responsibility document for an additional 10 years on the AMV that was not replaced.

Currently a drainage material installed behind the stone costs about $2/sf and remediation is around $58/sf.

Code addresses installation of AMV in R703 Exterior Covering

Further R703.6 Extrerior Plaster.

I have been involved in 15 cases in the last 3 years in 3 states. My clients have prevailed. This is no small issue and many homeowners suffer from these problems. Out of the last 400 AMV inspections I have done I have found 2 that were almost right. Pretty sad state of affairs.

I did the last raining session on AMV at EDI. Hope to do more in the future.

Scott

Good meeting you at my seminar at ASHI this year. Hope it helped you on this one but you didn't need it you know what you are doing.

Write it up and take no crap from anyone.

[Mark P]

Anyone have a real world picture of what a weep screen looks like? Is it normally visible along the bottom edge of AMSV over wood framing? I had a house yesterday with this material over a small area on the front. I'm not sure if there is a weep screen or not. I'm not really sure what I'm looking for or if it would be visible anyway. I used an infrared camera and moisture meter on the inside and found no hidden problems.

Also if someone would like to share a general boiler plate regarding AMSV. Something that speaks to the history of installation problems, etc.

Thanks

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[kurt]

Screed. Weep screed.

The crappy ones look like drywall j channel. They're on the "back" facing the wall.

The j channel stuff is kinda crappy. We use a custom channel from a CNC sheet metal shop that's got a "kick" at the bottom to deflect the water out away from the wall. (For stucco, not AMCV).