shingles on low pitch roof

[vleespet]

The majority of my house has a 3/12 pitch but where my chimney and skylights are it is unfortunately under 2/12.

I had several leaks and I hired somebody to put new shingles on my roof with 2 new skylights to replace the old "bubbels" in november 2004. It is now almost 1 year and they had to come back 9 times after every good shower because of leaks between the chimney and the skylights.

I know it is stupid but I did some research afterwards and I found out that on a roof with a pitch under 2/12 you are not supposed to install shingles but use roll roofing and torch it on...he should have told me that or not?

Also I found out that the skylights he installed from velux were not suppose to be installed on a roof with a pitch lower than 15 degrees...that is 3/12..

Anybody any ideas of who is responsible for this mess....i'm sick of leaks in my livingroom

thanks

Ron

[hausdok]

Hi,

Any roofer with half a lick of sense knows you aren't supposed to use asphalt shingles between a 2:12 and 4:12 pitch, unless you reduce reveal to 3 inches and use a bituthene underlayment or doubled-up felt underlayment. Once below 2:12 or less, it needs to be a product designed for a flat roof - hot tar and gravel built-up cover (yeaach!); mod-bit (SBS or APP); EPDM; or PVC. Malarkey does make an "Alaskan" shingle that is fabricated from mod-bit material and is designed for low-slope roofs, but it too is supposed to have a layer of ice and water shield beneath it.

Bottom line, the roofer has his head up his ass so far that he'll need to visit the proctologist whenever he needs dental work done.

As for the skylight, who bought it? Did you tell the guy, "Buy this model Velux skylight and install it"? or did you just tell him you wanted new skylights and he went out bought them, installed them and then handed you the bill? If the first, a guy who really knew his stuff would probably tell you that they wouldn't work, but there is a large percentage of folks who'd just install what you told them to and wouldn't even bother to read the instructions. If the second, it should be entirely on the installer. He picked it out, he installed it where it may not be installed and he flashed it.

Unfortunately, it's not a big enough issue to interest a lawyer and if you take him to small claims court you probably won't get fully satisfied either. You migth consider arbitration. In any event, find someone who walks upright with his ears free of his anus to do it over - right this time.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Bill Kibbel]

"...under 2/12 you are not supposed to install shingles but use roll roofing and torch it on"

You don't want "roll roofing". Mineral surfaced modified bitumen would be what you're thinking of.

"...velux were not suppose to be installed on a roof with a pitch lower than 15 degrees"

Velux supplies prefabricated roof curbs for their products used on low slope roof systems. Not exactly sure how low though. I know it's acceptable for 2/12.

The contractor probably can't read the product's installation instructions due to his cranial-anal interrelation. Seriously, this guy needs to learn the basics of the products he's installing.

[kurt]

Mostly what Mike & Bill said; any roofer installing tab shingles on a low slope roof is a moron. What's amazing, I see it all the time. I only know one roofer. Most guys doing roofing are not roofers; they're just guys installing roofs until they find a different job.

The shallow pitch skylite conundrum is one of my hot buttons. Velux used to make a curb flashing package designed specifically for solving this problem; it would increase the pitch to the minimum required 3:12. I just got off the Velux site, & to my surprise, they do not make this package anymore, or at least, I couldn't find it on the site.

At any rate, I've installed (approx.) >200 Velux lights, & they can be installed so that they NEVER LEAK. I have 6 on my current home that have been in place for 12 years and have NEVER LEAKED. If anyone tries to tell you that leaks & skylites are part of the package, do not believe them.

As far as where you go from here, I'd call the mfg's. of the materials to have them inform the installer he's wrong; maybe you can work some pressure from the other end, because the moron probably isn't interested in hearing his customer inform him of the right way to install shingles & skylites. These problems usually do not have a quick resolution due to intransigence (sp?) of moron contractors. Be patient and find a decent roofer who understands installation spec's.

[Bill Kibbel]

www.veluxsolutions.com/static/Products/flashing.html

Scroll down the page to ECX/EMX flat roof curbs.

[kurt]

Yeah, that's it. Couldn't find it last night.

I've used these on several occasions to obtain the desired pitch; they provide some additional options for tricking out the lightwell on the interior also.

[Les]

The way I see it is - The above people posting are holding back on their opinions. I, on the other hand, would just say the roofer is an idiot!

[vleespet]

Thanks for all the feedback guys...it is really appreciated!!1

Below some pictures after they "fixed" it this afternoon, I could not stay myself but I took pictures when I came back.

Notice the caulk around the skylight...if it rains where does the water go?

Any advice on what to do with that part of the roof is welcome

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[kurt]

Ouch. When you see caulk on a skylite, you know the installer is clueless. Ditto on the chimney flashing. From what I can see, neither unit is step flashed; without step flashing, both skylites & chimney will leak. There is no simple repair, & caulk definitely isn't going to do it.

Any of you other guys got a graphic on step flashing?

[hausdok]

Hmmm,

My response upon returning to the home to reinspect that would probably be, "I wouldn't guaranty that for as long as it takes me to reach my truck and drive out of the driveway."

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[hausdok]

Originally posted by kurt

Any of you other guys got a graphic on step flashing?

Sure,

Place your cursor on 'Resources' above and then choose 'Downloads'. Once you are on the downloads site, scroll down to FM 5-426. Open that file and scroll to Chapter 7 (Roofs) to page 121 where you'll find a step flashing graphic.

If any of you folks who don't have a basic construction background haven't downloaded and printed off that manual from this site, you're overlooking a wonderfully and complete source of how things were done back when they built things right and I strongly recommend you download it now.

I recommend it for the white throne contemplation room and those times when you finish the paper and want something else to study.

While I'm at it, I'll mention again that I've got the Army's Basic Engineer's correspondence course saved on my computer. It is based on 5-426, but only skims the most important basics in the form of a series of small manuals with exercises and exams. If anyone is interested in working through it - either to gain basic knowledge or to refresh their memory - I'll be glad to work with you on it via Email and can function as your grader. Just let me know.

It never hurts to refresh the old brain cells.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[kurt]

You're right; I completely forgot about the Resources. Unfortuneately, there isn't much for step flashing, or flashing @ all.

I don't have the time to put together the job description for this lousy roof in it's entirety; suffice it to say, it's all gotta come off. I hate to break it to you harshly, but you've got a mess up there, & it's going to leak until someone installs the materials properly.

[Bill Kibbel]

That skylight flashing looks like the kit Velux provides for high profile roofing materials like concrete or spanish tile, not for low profile asphalt shingles.

"Any advice on what to do with that part of the roof is welcome"

-Find a competent roofer.

-Remove and replace the roof with appropriate materials for the low slope.

-Re-flash the chimney properly and include a cricket uphill.

-Obtain and install the proper roof curb and flashing kit for the skylight from the manufacturer. (As Kurt said Velux doesn't leak if installed properly with the correct accessories)

-Make every possible attempt to make the first roofer pay to have it done correctly.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by vleespet

Thanks for all the feedback guys...it is really appreciated!!1

Below some pictures after they "fixed" it this afternoon, I could not stay myself but I took pictures when I came back.

Notice the caulk around the skylight...if it rains where does the water go?

Any advice on what to do with that part of the roof is welcome

That roofing job is an abomination. Strip it off down to the plywood and start over. It cannot be repaired.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Bradd Judd]

Ron,

I'm not sure if you are a fellow inspector, but it is your duty and responsibility to rip that roofer a new [:-censore!!!! I'm sorry that's not very productive, but I would be going into full melt down if that was on my roof, and had just paid my hard earned money for it. [:-crazy]

On a different approach, I share my colleges ( jim, kurt and bill's)sentiments on what needs to be done.

I'm not sure what requirements your roofer has to operate in your state, but many towns, townships and counties require a contractor to be registered in their jurisdictions.

I usually have had luck (in the past)with getting a county engineer or a code enforcement officer on my side before threatening any kind of litigation. This may either educate the roofer and allow him to right his wrong, or motivate him to keep out of the local authorities radar by expediting the replacement of your roof and exterior flashing/skylights.

Good Luck Ron!!!

[vleespet]

I am not a fellow inspector...I hope I did not hack this forum as a non inspector...all i want is some information and y'all been a great help.

I will write down some of the information that you gave me and i think the smartest way to go about this is take mr.Judds advice and try to contact a county engineer or a code enforcement officer....I live in Glynn County,Georgia...I will try and find me one. If not I can find one of your fellowinspectors locally to help me out.

thanks again

Ron van Velzen

[vleespet]

I had another roofer to check out the work on my roof...he basically told me what y'all already sais plus extra.

The Timberline 30 archtectual shingles where installed incorrectly...he was explaining to me why but he lost me there:-(

He also mentioned that they used a nailgun to attach the shingles...he could tell they shot through several shingles across the roof.He wasn't sure if he could do a cricket behind the chimney because of the low slope.The skylights need to be redone as well.I will include a few close ups off the work they done...don't laugh

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[kurt]

Not a hack; I think anyone w/an interest in the profession is welcome.

Yikes; the closeups are ugly. Bad ugly. Glad to hear you have someone who knows what to do.

Good luck w/it.

[RobC]

Kurt,

Hope this is what you're looking for

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BTW- What do you call the cut made to allow the step flashing into the mortar joint? [:-graduat

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[kurt]

Yeah, that's a decent graphic.

I always just called it the kerf.

[Jim Morrison]

Rob C,

I think the proper term for that cut is a "reglet"

[kurt]

A reglet is a thin architectural molding.

[Jim Morrison]

True, O learned One, but the term is also applied to the cut described above. Google it up and scroll on down. It's not the first definition, but you'll find it.

[RobC]

A reglet it is. A groove for guiding or holding a panel, window sash, or in this case a metal flashing.

Kurt is correct a reglet can also be a narrow, flat molding or fillet.

[hausdok]

Yeah,

I'd always heard reglet in relation to chimney flashings too, but in those cases it was applied to the turned back lip of the flashings which is driven into the slot or kerf and holds the flashings in place - a practice almost non-existent around here anymore, by the way. So, apparently I picked up on a misnomer.

Anyway, I just looked it up in theIllustrated Dictionary of Building Materials & Techniques where a reglet is defined as: A long, narrow slot or groove formed in a wall, designed to receive a flashing or to serve as an anchorage.

He lists kerf as the groove or space created by the cutting action of a saw blade, which we all knew and agree with.

Technically, on the old chimneys where new flashings are installed it could be called either, since some of these guys use a saw to cut 'kerfs' or 'reglets' to push the new flashings into.

Do any of you folks see mason's turning back the lip on flashings so they'll be a good tight press-fit when they insert them or are they just straight?

Learned something new today. Kewl.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike