Girder beam Splicing. OK over posts?

[juzplanekrazy]

I'm adding on 2 bedrooms to our house and I have the footings and piers poured.

The building is basic +/-25 x 25 with 4 piers @ mid point.

I have a 4x8 girder beam running down the middle with the joist being hug by Simpson joist hangers.

My question is, is it Ok to splice the girder in a few place's over the top of the posts?

See sketch. I'm in Riverside Ca.

Thks for any help.

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[juzplanekrazy]

Here's a few pictures of what I'm doing.

[Marc]

No. Splices should be supported. Letting them hang between the supports that way is wrong.

Marc

[John Kogel]

We are home inspectors here, not architects.

I would not use 3 4X8's to span only 25 feet. You are expecting those middle piers to stay put with the weight of the floor on them? What if they settle an inch or so after you get the subfloor down?

Build up a beam, doubled or tripled from 2X10 if you have to use short lengths. It is not going to cost that much more. JMO. I don't know if you have permits and don't personally care, but never underbuild something to save $100.

Lay polyethylene vapor barrier on that dirt and seal it with builder's tape. Best is a concrete skim coat over the poly. Provide access and ventilation. Don't ignore the threat of termite attack.

You will need to have the service entry and the meter moved, as you know.

[Jim Katen]

I'm adding on 2 bedrooms to our house and I have the footings and piers poured.

The building is basic +/-25 x 25 with 4 piers @ mid point.

I have a 4x8 girder beam running down the middle with the joist being hug by Simpson joist hangers.

My question is, is it Ok to splice the girder in a few place's over the top of the posts?

See sketch. I'm in Riverside Ca.

Thks for any help.

Putting splices above the posts is fine. It's standard practice for this type of construction.

I'm concerned about your interior footing pads, though. They should be placed on undisturbed soil and never on topsoil. If you didn't excavate down to solid soil, you should pull them and replace them.

You don't have enough anchor bolts on the mud sills.

All organic material should be removed from the soil in the crawlspace. There shouldn't be grass, roots, etc, down there.

Don't they have permits in Riverside?

[Jim Katen]

No. Splices should be supported. Letting them hang between the supports that way is wrong.

He's not putting the splices between the supports, he's putting them directly above them.

[Jim Katen]

We are home inspectors here, not architects.

I would not use 3 4X8's to span only 25 feet. You are expecting those middle piers to stay put with the weight of the floor on them? What if they settle an inch or so after you get the subfloor down?

If they're placed on undisturbed soil, they'll be fine. This is standard construction in my area. I'm surprised that it isn't common in yours as well.

Build up a beam, doubled or tripled from 2X10 if you have to use short lengths. It is not going to cost that much more. JMO. I don't know if you have permits and don't personally care, but never underbuild something to save $100.

He's not underbuilding. Your way works as well, but his is just as valid. If you don't need a long span for headroom or to span unstable soils, there's no reason to make one.

[juzplanekrazy]

Thanks guy for the replys. Maybe the 4x4 threw some of you off of what i was saying. The 4x4 is post material not beam mat. It's just setting there.

I want to SPLICE above posts.

Yes I have permits.

The Arch.... didn't show any splices or show what to do if i did or wanted to.

I'm 24'-7" from rim to rim. A special order 4x8 26'L girder beam would be nice, but hard to get and $$$ If I have to Oh well.

I can get 12'ers at HD.

Also the bolts are @ 4' OC per plan. And the piers are 24x24 x 18" into the ground w/8" above. May just look to be set on dirt but there not. Those things arent moving .

And they do not require any type of ground surface work....as in plastic, vapor barrier, slurry etc. They do up north, but not here in RV. Ca.

Thks again.

[gtblum]

I would suggest you consider gluing an equally sized piece of half inch plywood between the dimension lumber for added strength. You don't really need to, but it would be stronger.

I would at the very least, glue the lumber when I built the beam.

[Jim Katen]

. . . The Arch.... didn't show any splices or show what to do if i did or wanted to.

It's fine to put the spliced directly over the posts but don't use 4x4s for the posts, use 4x6s. They'll give you a broader "seat" for the splice. In my area, it's common to use a chainsaw to cut most of the way through the girder directly above each posts. This way, as the girder dries, there's no chance that it will warp upward off the post.

Also the bolts are @ 4' OC per plan.

That's fine, however, you should also have one within 12" of each end of each sill piece. It's easy to add them now. Do it.

And the piers are 24x24 x 18" into the ground w/8" above. May just look to be set on dirt but there not. Those things arent moving .

Good.

And they do not require any type of ground surface work....as in plastic, vapor barrier, slurry etc. They do up north, but not here in RV. Ca.

Thks again.

Do it anyway. You've got bugs in RV, right? You don't want stuff that can decay under your house. Scrape off the vegetation. You don't need slurry and you might not need plastic, but it will take 15 minutes to lay out the plastic before you frame up the floor. I'd do it anyway.

[Jim Katen]

I would suggest you consider gluing an equally sized piece of half inch plywood between the dimension lumber for added strength. You don't really need to, but it would be stronger.

I would at the very least, glue the lumber when I built the beam.

He's not "building" a beam. He's using 4x6s. They're not built up, they're solid wood. Each 4x6 is only spanning about 5'. They'll be plenty strong.

[juzplanekrazy]

Thks Jim for the reply.

I will be useing a Simpson PC 4x4 to tie the post to the 4"x8" girder. That should do what your talking about I would guess.

[hausdok]

I agree with everything Jim has said,

You'll get folks from up north and the east coast recommending that you build up a beam because large dimension lumber is not that available in those parts. I'm originally from NYS, if we'd wanted a 6 by 12 beam we had to lay it up from planks 'cuz we couldn't buy lumber that large at the local yards.

Do as Jim says, scrape off the vegetation. Do not just lay poly over it and call it a day or you'll end up with a house that smells like an old open-pit haylage silo. Besides, the IRC forbids any organic material under the house in the crawlspace - it's a no brainer - remove it.

What's the height going to be from that soil to the underside of that 4 by 8 girder? Are you going to have at least 12 inches? If not, you'd better start digging or when you go to sell some smartass home inspector like me is going to come out of there and comment about how some looney tunes put in an addition with only 10 inches under a girder that's inaccessible for complete inspection. If you have a buyer with a HUD or FHA loan in a case like that the buyer is liable to walk 'cuz they won't get approval until it's rectified?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[John Kogel]

OK, I thought I was looking at concrete pads poured on sandy soil.

Even so. I am accustomed to seeing the beam go continuous from wall to wall, nowadays it would be gluelam. But ok, if you must have two splices, how about going 10-10-5, so the short piece is at the wall.

[juzplanekrazy]

Thks guy for all the input. Thank you all.

Iv'e lived here in So Cal for 57years and crawled under a few homes. All of them dirt. no plastic, no slurry. Cutting the weeds down is a must do, and I wll. A vapor barrier is not a bad idea, even if never required in this area.

I will have 18" "Clear" under all members- Joist and Girder.

The 2x8 floor joist also get R19 insolation under the subfloor. With a vapor barrier nailed under the joist.

Maybe our area way of handleing it.

[John Kogel]

You could look into 'Conditioned Crawlspace', where the perimeter foundation wall is insulated instead of the floor. It may work well in your area. No ventilation to the outside.

One danger is that termites will use the insulated wall for a corridor to the wood, so you need to leave a gap around the bottom for monitoring.

Another suggestion is that you bust a hole to the old crawlspace for better access between, handy for pulling cable and pipes as well.

I know that the vapor barrier on dirt is rare down your way, but it is a cheap and simple way to improve the climate in your crawl. There are new hazards in soil being discovered all the time - Hanta virus is one.

[kurt]

One danger is that termites will use the insulated wall for a corridor to the wood, so you need to leave a gap around the bottom for monitoring.

Do folks still use termite shields in this arrangement?

[John Kogel]

One danger is that termites will use the insulated wall for a corridor to the wood, so you need to leave a gap around the bottom for monitoring.

Do folks still use termite shields in this arrangement?

Not where I live but they certainly should in California.

We have mostly Dampwood termys and only small pockets of the nasty subs.

[juzplanekrazy]

I'm not against doing something to help against termites and a better product in the end.

They just do not require these things in our area. But I will look into it for my own benefit..

So in the end here's is what I ended up getting done this weekend. Which was..... the sill, rim and girder beam. Which is split OVER the posts, with Simpson Post Hangers as you can see, with a beam hanger also used against the house. The girder was hug doing 10'-5'-10'.

Joist is next.

By the way, this is a cool site. I was a little shocked how a few posters jumped in and took it completely off track of what I was asking.

Must be and Inspector thing [:-magnify

[kurt]

By the way, this is a cool site.

Thanks. It is.

I was a little shocked how a few posters jumped in and took it completely off track of what I was asking.

Must be and Inspector thing [:-magnify

This was garden variety off track. You should see it when it really goes nuts.

Yes, it is an inspector thing. Sometimes it just gets that way.

BTW, I've followed the meanderings. My opinion is it's fine and dandy. Ditch the organic material, make up your own mind on the vapor retarder. I'd place crushed stone on the floor, but I don't know if folks do that there.

[Tom Raymond]

I'd place crushed stone on the floor, but I don't know if folks do that there.

Pea gravel is much nicer to crawl around on.

What you have looks fine, just remove the sod before the joist go in.

[kurt]

It's better for nap taking too.

It's not much good for anything else, though.

[hausdok]

That's a nice crawl. Pull the weeds, remove all of the organic crap, hit the soil with some Roundup and put the barrier down and he'll have a little Lexus of a crawlspace compared to the friggin Yugo's I have to crawl through all the time.

Don't recommend putting a vapor barrier on the underside of the joists unless you want to turn those joist bays into petri dishes.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike