Improper Flashing?

[Brandon Whitmore]

I often write up flashing issues such as the one shown Stephan's example. Obviously, a marble isn't necessary to prove a point that water will drain off the edge, and possibly into the wall at that location.

If contractors could be trusted to isntall a proper WRB, then this wouldn't really matter, but they can not.......

[Stefan McGuire]

Jim, lets see the excerpt from the report where it says to replace the flashing.

The flashing was lifted up to a 1/4" the wrong direction at places.

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That one's clearly screwed up and likely to cause trouble. I'd recommend replacing it too.

At no place did the report say to replace this- It said consult a siding contractor for a further evaluation to determine their opinion for repairs or replacement.

Then I apologize if I mischaracterized your report.

The buyer requested the seller to fix all lifted and negatively sloped flashing- I just gave them the information, they made the judgement call to request it be replaced.

If the seller didn't want to fix it, they should not have agreed to fix it in the repair addendum.

If the sellers agreed to do it, then they should honor their agreement.

If you feel this is not a problem or issue, keep neglecting to put it in your reports. I'll continue to put it in mine.

Fair enough.

There are times - like the example in the picture that you posted - where it can be a real issue. In my opinion, though, it's just not a real issue in most cases.

Thanks Brandon.

Thanks for your response Jim,

I completely agree, there are multiple factors that will inevitably decide if this ever becomes an issue down the road. As you know, exposure/ roof protection/ maintenance all will decide on whether on not this issue eventually becomes water damage.

There were at least a 1/2 dozen different places on the outside of the home that had similar (maybe not as extreme) curling and lifting like the picture shown. My concern is that moisture streaming down the wall on a rainy day, is then going to intersect with the reversed metal and leak horizontally. No end-damming (or seams on the belly-bands) to me seems likely that some of this moisture will then have a path behind the siding and potentially cause water damage.

Now you mentioned that you would agree the example I gave needs replaced- if you see 6 or so places like this, will you only specifically mention those exact locations need repairs or replaced? Or do what I did, and recommend a specialized contractor provide a further overall evaluation to determine the need for repairs/ replacement?

As far as the marble goes, it doesn't have alot of practical application in most situations. But for me, when these horizontal flashings (that were put there to direct water away from the wall- shingling principle right) are curled and lifted (not the way they were installed), I want my clients to know that it is performing opposite of what it was put there in the first place for (isn't that what happened with LP). The ball bearing makes explaining the situation to my clients much easier. Don't use it, if you don't like it. It makes showing the issue in a photo much easier.

[kurt]

The marble man is revealed!

The pic shows something that's easy to fault; anyone doing this job should point out that sort of specific condition.

OTOH, that's not what the OP was about, particularly. It was more of a general question.

"(that were put there to direct water away from the wall- shingling principle right)"

I thought "horizontal flashing" was intended to prevent water entering the wall at the penetration/fenestration, not diverting it from the "wall-shingling principle right", whatever that means.

[Jim Katen]

There were at least a 1/2 dozen different places on the outside of the home that had similar (maybe not as extreme) curling and lifting like the picture shown. My concern is that moisture streaming down the wall on a rainy day, is then going to intersect with the reversed metal and leak horizontally.

Water streaming down the wall will hit the reversed metal. Some will roll off the sides and some will still roll off the front. Whether or not it *leaks* will depend on a host of other factors. I think it's incorrect to say that a flashing will "leak" just because it slopes back toward the house.

No end-damming (or seams on the belly-bands) to me seems likely that some of this moisture will then have a path behind the siding and potentially cause water damage.

It's certainly possible, but you need to look at it on a case by case basis. If you see gaps and openings that the water can flow though, then something needs to be fixed. If the joints are tight and a small wad of caulk is tucked into the ends of the flashing, then leaks are unlikely. A large portion of the success of these installations also depends on what's going on below the siding. I think it's too simplistic to call out any flashing that doesn't slope outward.

Now you mentioned that you would agree the example I gave needs replaced- if you see 6 or so places like this, will you only specifically mention those exact locations need repairs or replaced? Or do what I did, and recommend a specialized contractor provide a further overall evaluation to determine the need for repairs/ replacement?

Personally, I rarely punt to anyone else for evaluation. My recommendations tend to be very specific. In this case, I'd say, "At locations A, B, C, & D, make repairs X, Y, & Z."

As far as the marble goes, it doesn't have alot of practical application in most situations. But for me, when these horizontal flashings (that were put there to direct water away from the wall- shingling principle right) are curled and lifted (not the way they were installed), I want my clients to know that it is performing opposite of what it was put there in the first place for (isn't that what happened with LP). The ball bearing makes explaining the situation to my clients much easier. Don't use it, if you don't like it. It makes showing the issue in a photo much easier.

It's not a bad idea except that these particular flashings were not intended to be installed with a positive slope. They come from the manufacturer with 90 degree bends. Even an excellent siding crew is going to have a few that don't roll outward in the way that you expect to see. In order to achieve that, you'd have to buy different flashing. Just because there's another, better, way to do something, that doesn't necessarily make me want to tell folks to re-do an existing installation unless I see a compelling reason to do so.

For instance, in older Hardiplank installations, I routinely tell people to abandon the caulk at the butt joints and install retrofitted flashing instead. I've developed a method for doing this that's quick and easy and that I'm happy to explain to contractors.

Likewise, I'm less concerned about the slope of the flashings and more concerned about the presence of caulk all along the joint between the flashings and the siding course above and about the presence of end dams - whether they be actual formed metal or merely little wads of caulk - both work well.

[Garet]

Or do what I did, and recommend a specialized contractor provide a further overall evaluation to determine the need for repairs/ replacement?

You've told us it needs to be repaired. You're telling the client you're not sure ("have a contractor determine the need"). That comes across as being wishy-washy.

Like Jim, I tell people "here's the problem, fix it". Unlike Jim, I usually don't get terribly specific about location. I figure if a fix-it guy can't figure out the "where" part then it's unlikely he'll figure out the "how" part and they probably need a different "fix-it" guy.

[Denray]

I like the marble thing on shower window sills.

I looked at a manufactured home out in the boonies one time that had cracked drywall all over the place. The only room without carpet was the kitchen. It felt a bit sloped. The marble raced to the edge and I took a photo just to remind me. The Realtor wanted that photo. I figured that the whole home was probably out of level and that caused the cracks. Best to have leveled before making crack repairs.