Improper Flashing?

[SNations]

I think this fellow is right on the technical merits. Any exterior detail is going to work better and last longer if it sheds water well. Well sloped might be only infinitesimally better, and maybe not significantly better, but better nonetheless. And just because everybody does it wrong doesn't make it OK.

[hausdok]

I think this fellow is right on the technical merits. Any exterior detail is going to work better and last longer if it sheds water well. Well sloped might be only infinitesimally better, and maybe not significantly better, but better nonetheless. And just because everybody does it wrong doesn't make it OK.

Yeah, that's right to a point; but saying they need to be replaced? He's pushing the credibility envelope there. Someday he's going to get called out by a builder, end up in court and then a siding manufacturer's tech rep is going to be called in by the other side as a witness and the tech rep will say something like, "Yeah, we liked those pics so we borrowed them from so-and-so. Sure, sloped flashings work better, but the truth is we don' t have any data anywhere to prove that flat flashings aren't working. We'll still honor the warranty on that product."

Then he'll walk out with so much egg on his face he'll looks like a Denver Omellete with it's head stuck up it's ass.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[SNations]

I think this fellow is right on the technical merits. Any exterior detail is going to work better and last longer if it sheds water well. Well sloped might be only infinitesimally better, and maybe not significantly better, but better nonetheless. And just because everybody does it wrong doesn't make it OK.

Yeah, that's right to a point; but saying they need to be replaced? He's pushing the credibility envelope there. Someday he's going to get called out by a builder, end up in court and then a siding manufacturer's tech rep is going to be called in by the other side as a witness and the tech rep will say something like, "Yeah, we liked those pics so we borrowed them from so-and-so. Sure, sloped flashings work better, but the truth is we don' t have any data anywhere to prove that flat flashings aren't working. We'll still honor the warranty on that product."

Then he'll walk out with so much egg on his face he'll looks like a Denver Omellete with it's head stuck up it's ass.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

Well, I'm not defending his reporting. I thought about making that point in my first post, but decided it was extraneous.

On the other hand, he's never going to end up in court. We all know that. But if he does, and the rep says, "Sure, sloped flashings work better" then he'd win.

[SNations]

So is the bigger question this: Should we report on things that are wrong, strictly speaking, but won't make a difference? I would say the answer is, it depends. . . .

[Jim Katen]

So is the bigger question this: Should we report on things that are wrong, strictly speaking, but won't make a difference? I would say the answer is, it depends. . . .

I don't think it's wrong, no matter how strictly you speak. The downside to this is very close to zero.

Is the flashing "better" when it's sloped away from the wall? Maybe.

Is it "wrong" if it's not? No way.

My opinion - this is an inspector who has a bad case of the rightousness of book-learnin'.

[SNations]

So is the bigger question this: Should we report on things that are wrong, strictly speaking, but won't make a difference? I would say the answer is, it depends. . . .

I don't think it's wrong, no matter how strictly you speak. The downside to this is very close to zero.

Yes, and I said pretty much exactly that in my first post. I said "Well sloped might be only infinitesimally better, and maybe not significantly better. . . ." Translation: the downside to this is very close to zero. So please be clear about my position.

However, if the downside is not *exactly* zero then it's wrong. Maybe not wrong enough to bother fixing, and maybe not wrong enough for the builder to worry about in the first place. But still wrong, and JLC Best Practices clearly agrees.

It's all a matter of how it's reported, and this guy appears to be going overboard with the fear factor. I certainly agree with that.

[Jim Katen]

. . . However, if the downside is not *exactly* zero then it's wrong. Maybe not wrong enough to bother fixing, and maybe not wrong enough for the builder to worry about in the first place. But still wrong, and JLC Best Practices clearly agrees.

I still disagree. There are various methods for flashing these details. What's deemed "best" today might be deemed "crap" tomorrow.

If you use a method that involves a flashing product that comes with a built-in bevel, then you should install it that way. Such products are exceedingly rare in single family construction. (By the way, I work with them regularly in some of my outside gigs on multifamily jobs. The drip edges are also bevelled and hemmed and we include end dams that extend both above and below bevel at each end - each one is painstakingly custom fabbed in the field. If we're taking "best practices, I'd say that the JLC specs are crap and, therefore, "wrong.")

The stuff off the shelf comes preformed with 90 degree angles. Are you proposing altering it in the field? When you buy and install pre-made flashing with 90-degree angles, there will be some that slope one way and some that slope another after they're installed. This is reality, not a drawing in a book. The installation will contain discrepancies. While that might make it "imperfect," it doesn't follow that it's, "wrong."

[mlparham]

Right. When I see that sort of stuff, I put it in the report. Same thing with window sill aluminum wraps that don't drain.

I'm still don't understand which window and door flashing Katen's talking about.

We're talking about Z-metal over a window or door or over a belly band.

My belly band is a leather belt.Should I get a Z-metal belt? My belly sheds water just fine (I confirmed this with a marble test) but salsa is a problem at times.

[Marc]

. . . However, if the downside is not *exactly* zero then it's wrong. Maybe not wrong enough to bother fixing, and maybe not wrong enough for the builder to worry about in the first place. But still wrong, and JLC Best Practices clearly agrees.

I still disagree. There are various methods for flashing these details. What's deemed "best" today might be deemed "crap" tomorrow.

If you use a method that involves a flashing product that comes with a built-in bevel, then you should install it that way. Such products are exceedingly rare in single family construction. (By the way, I work with them regularly in some of my outside gigs on multifamily jobs. The drip edges are also bevelled and hemmed and we include end dams that extend both above and below bevel at each end - each one is painstakingly custom fabbed in the field. If we're taking "best practices, I'd say that the JLC specs are crap and, therefore, "wrong.")

The stuff off the shelf comes preformed with 90 degree angles. Are you proposing altering it in the field? When you buy and install pre-made flashing with 90-degree angles, there will be some that slope one way and some that slope another after they're installed. This is reality, not a drawing in a book. The installation will contain discrepancies. While that might make it "imperfect," it doesn't follow that it's, "wrong."

I don't think either of you are wrong. It just how you look at the profession. It's like Repubs and Demos, they've different views but both work the same field.

Marc

[SNations]

. . . However, if the downside is not *exactly* zero then it's wrong. Maybe not wrong enough to bother fixing, and maybe not wrong enough for the builder to worry about in the first place. But still wrong, and JLC Best Practices clearly agrees.

I still disagree. There are various methods for flashing these details. What's deemed "best" today might be deemed "crap" tomorrow.

If you use a method that involves a flashing product that comes with a built-in bevel, then you should install it that way. Such products are exceedingly rare in single family construction. (By the way, I work with them regularly in some of my outside gigs on multifamily jobs. The drip edges are also bevelled and hemmed and we include end dams that extend both above and below bevel at each end - each one is painstakingly custom fabbed in the field. If we're taking "best practices, I'd say that the JLC specs are crap and, therefore, "wrong.")

The stuff off the shelf comes preformed with 90 degree angles. Are you proposing altering it in the field? When you buy and install pre-made flashing with 90-degree angles, there will be some that slope one way and some that slope another after they're installed. This is reality, not a drawing in a book. The installation will contain discrepancies. While that might make it "imperfect," it doesn't follow that it's, "wrong."

Maybe what's "best" today will be "crap" tomorrow. Maybe not. I'll go with best practices at the time of construction. (Standards change, I know that. I said it here a few weeks ago.)

If I'm a builder and the flashing comes with a 90-degree angle then I'm going to slap it up as fast as I can and then move on to the next house and not lose a minute of sleep. I run a business too, and I understand that you can't worry about every little detail, especially on something that has a very low chance of making a difference.

But if it's my house, then I want to find one of the exceedingly rare pieces of flashing with the bevel built in, because I think that's best practice. And while I repeat that I'm not going to condone your local inspector's reporting methods, I'm not going to fault someone on the technical side for wanting to see best practices, especially when it comes to water resistance detailing.

[Jerry Simon]

. . . However, if the downside is not *exactly* zero then it's wrong. Maybe not wrong enough to bother fixing, and maybe not wrong enough for the builder to worry about in the first place. But still wrong, and JLC Best Practices clearly agrees.

I still disagree. There are various methods for flashing these details. What's deemed "best" today might be deemed "crap" tomorrow.

If you use a method that involves a flashing product that comes with a built-in bevel, then you should install it that way. Such products are exceedingly rare in single family construction. (By the way, I work with them regularly in some of my outside gigs on multifamily jobs. The drip edges are also bevelled and hemmed and we include end dams that extend both above and below bevel at each end - each one is painstakingly custom fabbed in the field. If we're taking "best practices, I'd say that the JLC specs are crap and, therefore, "wrong.")

The stuff off the shelf comes preformed with 90 degree angles. Are you proposing altering it in the field? When you buy and install pre-made flashing with 90-degree angles, there will be some that slope one way and some that slope another after they're installed. This is reality, not a drawing in a book. The installation will contain discrepancies. While that might make it "imperfect," it doesn't follow that it's, "wrong."

Maybe what's "best" today will be "crap" tomorrow. Maybe not. I'll go with best practices at the time of construction. (Standards change, I know that. I said it here a few weeks ago.)

If I'm a builder and the flashing comes with a 90-degree angle then I'm going to slap it up as fast as I can and then move on to the next house and not lose a minute of sleep. I run a business too, and I understand that you can't worry about every little detail, especially on something that has a very low chance of making a difference.

But if it's my house, then I want to find one of the exceedingly rare pieces of flashing with the bevel built in, because I think that's best practice. And while I repeat that I'm not going to condone your local inspector's reporting methods, I'm not going to fault someone on the technical side for wanting to see best practices, especially when it comes to water resistance detailing.

I deleted my prior post referring to your rants/ramblings as being wishy-washy. Wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Consider my opinion re-stated.

('Course, this may be a completely wrong opinion, but it's my opinion. And, even if it's only a little wrong, I consider it okay. But, if my opinion isn't perfect, it might still be a little correct. In a real world, though, it's okay, though in *my* world, a "perfect" world, it's both wrong AND okay.)

Just so you're clear on where I stand. . .

[Jim Morrison]

A local inspector is telling folks that their window, door, and band trim flashings have to be replaced if the horizontal portion doesn't slope to drain toward the exterior surface of the trim. He uses a marble to determine whether or not the slope is adequate. If the marble rolls off the flashing, it's ok. If the marble stays put, then the flashing has to be replaced or reinstalled.

Before I express my opinion about this, I'm interested in hearing the opinions of others.

He's picking fly shit out of black pepper and not doing his clients any favors.

[SNations]

If you use a method that involves a flashing product that comes with a built-in bevel, then you should install it that way. Such products are exceedingly rare in single family construction. (By the way, I work with them regularly in some of my outside gigs on multifamily jobs. The drip edges are also bevelled and hemmed and we include end dams that extend both above and below bevel at each end - each one is painstakingly custom fabbed in the field.

OK, I'm going to break the cardinal rule of a discussion like this: I'm going to ask a question that I don't know the answer to.

Why do flashing products for multifamily jobs come with a built-in bevel, but not flashing for single family construction?

[kurt]

My guess is the multifamily has shop drawings and better spec sheets; bigger money, bigger contractors, architects, etc.

Single family jobs get shot from the hip in so many instances, and they end up with coil stock flashing, no shop drawings, or spec's.

Just a guess.

Although, I can think of plenty of large multifamily projects with no flashing, or POS flashing, or coil stock that's all mangled.

Back to the marble thing......any way I look at it, the guy's on wiener patrol. Some guy ever came on one of my jobs and started talking marbles, I'd just have to laugh.

[Jim Katen]

If you use a method that involves a flashing product that comes with a built-in bevel, then you should install it that way. Such products are exceedingly rare in single family construction. (By the way, I work with them regularly in some of my outside gigs on multifamily jobs. The drip edges are also bevelled and hemmed and we include end dams that extend both above and below bevel at each end - each one is painstakingly custom fabbed in the field.

OK, I'm going to break the cardinal rule of a discussion like this: I'm going to ask a question that I don't know the answer to.

Why do flashing products for multifamily jobs come with a built-in bevel, but not flashing for single family construction?

It's not all multi-family work, just some of the ones that I've been involved with lately. As Kurt said, it's because someone is actually thinking about this stuff and producing drawings and specs.

On the single family stuff - for the most part - the details consist of the word "flashing" and an arrow pointing to a spot on the drawing.

On jobs that actually have an architect and, often times, a skin consultant, there are pages of drawing devoted solely to flashing details. Mock-ups are make, changed, and remade until everyone is happy, and special inspectors are brought in just to look at the flashing details. Then the water testing begins . . .

[cluesoo]

I don't know if this flashing is galvanized or aluminum but I know that galvanized will tend to corrode if water is not allowed to drain properly.

[Jim Katen]

I don't know if this flashing is galvanized or aluminum but I know that galvanized will tend to corrode if water is not allowed to drain properly.

Show me some pictures of head flashing over a window that has corroded because it didn't "drain properly", whatever that means.

[Tom Raymond]

My house is 143 years old. The steel head flashing has a little rust on it, but is still far thicker than anything fabricated from aluminum coil, or even the steel stuff on the shelf at your local lumber yard. It will still be doing its job 100 years after the houses those modern counterparts are used on have fallen down. It is bent to a near perfect 90 degrees.

[SNations]

My guess is the multifamily has shop drawings and better spec sheets; bigger money, bigger contractors, architects, etc.

Single family jobs get shot from the hip in so many instances, and they end up with coil stock flashing, no shop drawings, or spec's.

Thank you Kurt. You've made my point for me. If better spec sheets call for sloped flashing, then doesn't it follow logically that sloped flashing is better?

I don't think JLC is wrong in their best practices specifications. Further, here's what Building Science Corporation has to say on the subject. From their document "Info-303 Common Flashing Details":

QUOTE: Head Flashings

Head flashings are used to direct water away from openings such as windows and doors. Head flashings should be installed with a positive slope to the exterior. The cladding above the head flashing should never rest on the flashing as this leads to problems with the flashing being bent in the wrong direction and sloped back towards the building. Head flashings should extent (sic) laterally past the opening on either side. END QUOTE

Translation: the marble should roll off.

Remember please, I'm not defending Mr. Marble's reporting methods. But I think to be fair to him and to this forum we have to acknowledge that he's right on the technical merits.

To his great credit, Mike did this in his first post on this thread. And Kurt, you did this over on the ASHI forum just a few days ago. Regarding the TPR discharge pipe in the sink, you said that you wouldn't report on it, but (again to your great credit) you acknowledged that it was in fact a cross connection.

So please, let's at least acknowledge that both JLC and Building Science state that flashing should be installed so that it's sloped. Then we can haggle over wether or how it should be reported.

[kurt]

Then we can haggle over wether or how it should be reported.

Do we have to?

[:-angel]

Because....

Everyone gets to report whatever they want, which can turn into a problem when rogue goofballs make mountains out of flyspecks with idiotic demonstrations using marbles.

It's hard enough getting taken seriously in this gig without turning it into a sideshow of one off meandering demonstrations involving children's toys.

Years ago, I was so glad when we seemed to be losing those folks that used marbles to demonstrate that floors were not level. I pray we don't backslide into that hole.

[Stefan McGuire]

I think this fellow is right on the technical merits. Any exterior detail is going to work better and last longer if it sheds water well. Well sloped might be only infinitesimally better, and maybe not significantly better, but better nonetheless. And just because everybody does it wrong doesn't make it OK.

Yeah, that's right to a point; but saying they need to be replaced? He's pushing the credibility envelope there. Someday he's going to get called out by a builder, end up in court and then a siding manufacturer's tech rep is going to be called in by the other side as a witness and the tech rep will say something like, "Yeah, we liked those pics so we borrowed them from so-and-so. Sure, sloped flashings work better, but the truth is we don' t have any data anywhere to prove that flat flashings aren't working. We'll still honor the warranty on that product."

Then he'll walk out with so much egg on his face he'll looks like a Denver Omellete with it's head stuck up it's ass.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

Jim, lets see the excerpt from the report where it says to replace the flashing.

The flashing was lifted up to a 1/4" the wrong direction at places.

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At no place did the report say to replace this- It said consult a siding contractor for a further evaluation to determine their opinion for repairs or replacement.

The buyer requested the seller to fix all lifted and negatively sloped flashing- I just gave them the information, they made the judgement call to request it be replaced.

If the seller didn't want to fix it, they should not have agreed to fix it in the repair addendum.

If you feel this is not a problem or issue, keep neglecting to put it in your reports. I'll continue to put it in mine.

[Marc]

I choose to neglect. I always have much bigger fish than that to report and impose on my client's attention.

Each to his own.

Marc

[hausdok]

I think this fellow is right on the technical merits. Any exterior detail is going to work better and last longer if it sheds water well. Well sloped might be only infinitesimally better, and maybe not significantly better, but better nonetheless. And just because everybody does it wrong doesn't make it OK.

Yeah, that's right to a point; but saying they need to be replaced? He's pushing the credibility envelope there. Someday he's going to get called out by a builder, end up in court and then a siding manufacturer's tech rep is going to be called in by the other side as a witness and the tech rep will say something like, "Yeah, we liked those pics so we borrowed them from so-and-so. Sure, sloped flashings work better, but the truth is we don' t have any data anywhere to prove that flat flashings aren't working. We'll still honor the warranty on that product."

Then he'll walk out with so much egg on his face he'll looks like a Denver Omellete with it's head stuck up it's ass.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

Jim, lets see the excerpt from the report where it says to replace the flashing.

The flashing was lifted up to a 1/4" the wrong direction at places.

Download Attachment: AlVT020413 060.jpg

194.7?KB

At no place did the report say to replace this- It said consult a siding contractor for a further evaluation to determine their opinion for repairs or replacement.

The buyer requested the seller to fix all lifted and negatively sloped flashing- I just gave them the information, they made the judgement call to request it be replaced.

If the seller didn't want to fix it, they should not have agreed to fix it in the repair addendum.

If you feel this is not a problem or issue, keep neglecting to put it in your reports. I'll continue to put it in mine.

Hmm,

Fair enough,

Except you were wrong. That's Hardiplank. Please show me in the Hardiplank installation instructions, or in the Hardiplank Best Practices - Installation guide where it specifically states that flashings must slope downward. I'm not talking about JLC's nice drawings - I'm talking about the quotable text in the instructions that state that the flashings must "slope" because whenever I've called James Hardie to discuss a technical point about their product they've pointed out to me that it's their language that counts and that they've borrowed those drawings from JLC, which they've acknowledged in writing on the instructions.

Also, please show me in the IRC where it says that flashings must "slope". I've never been able to find it.

I agree, the flashing in the photo is sloppy work and it is wrong - but it's wrong only because that gap between the bottom edge of the siding and the flashing is caulked - not because it slopes the wrong way.

The siding is not supposed to be caulked to the flashing. That you can find in the Hardie literature - you will not find anything that says those flashings must slope.

The requirement is for flashings period; and the flashing to siding joint is supposed to be 1/4 inch wide and left uncaulked.

The remedy isn't to punt it to a siding contractor for his opinion. What's the siding contractor going to say if he's installed siding on 500 houses exactly the way as shown in that photo? How does that kind of punt help the client?

The remedy is to have some schlub who's halfway competent cut away the caulk above the flashing so that any water behind the siding above that fixture mounting block is able to drain to the exterior. If he has half a lick of sense, since there aren't any end dams on that piece of flashing, it would be prudent for him/her to simply leave a little bit of that caulk at either end of that flashing intact - it doesn't have to be much; maybe a 3/8-inch - so water can't drain off the ends into the area behind the claps.

That would be a common sense call within reason that would do the client some good.

This isn't the medical profession or the legal profession where you can go back and pull up tons of precedent or walk into a room filled with walls of books with procedures set in stone and look up an answer. Hell, half the texts that are quoted in this business are written by home inspectors based on nothing more than their own experiences and quirks; and many of them have signficant errors.

It's not the engineering profession where you can base your opinion on solid engineering principles that have been proven again and again over hundreds and thousands of years - it's the home inspection profession where lots of stuff that gets parroted comes from the net or from urban myths or from magazine articles written by builders or contractors based on that person's experience but often without solid references that say "this is the way it shall be."

It's a profession where anal retentive folks who are unable to hear the voices of the more experienced around them telling them to use a little bit of common sense, tend to injure their own credibility.

You have to pick your battles in this business. If you're going to stand on something it should be something that's going to make a significant impact as far as protecting the client and your own credibility. Picking at nits that don't exist because you want to appear smarter than the guy who installed something only brands you as a horses ass with teeth.

Think about it.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[kurt]

You have to pick your battles in this business.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

Yes. And please don't use marbles when doing battle.

[Jim Katen]

Jim, lets see the excerpt from the report where it says to replace the flashing.

The flashing was lifted up to a 1/4" the wrong direction at places.

Download Attachment: AlVT020413 060.jpg

194.7?KB

That one's clearly screwed up and likely to cause trouble. I'd recommend replacing it too.

At no place did the report say to replace this- It said consult a siding contractor for a further evaluation to determine their opinion for repairs or replacement.

Then I apologize if I mischaracterized your report.

The buyer requested the seller to fix all lifted and negatively sloped flashing- I just gave them the information, they made the judgement call to request it be replaced.

If the seller didn't want to fix it, they should not have agreed to fix it in the repair addendum.

If the sellers agreed to do it, then they should honor their agreement.

If you feel this is not a problem or issue, keep neglecting to put it in your reports. I'll continue to put it in mine.

Fair enough.

There are times - like the example in the picture that you posted - where it can be a real issue. In my opinion, though, it's just not a real issue in most cases.