Vinyl siding with no barrier

[ramdino]

I have started seeing more of this lately, Vinyl siding installed without a barrier behind it. It's just installed right on the osb sheeting. NC codes don't' allow it and require a barrier acccodiinf to the State code offical, but our NC Home Inspection Board dos not allow us to cite code. Called Cerainteed and they say it is recommended but not required as far as they are concerned. Local code guy says it's ok on just the OSB. Obviously I got to inform the client but with some saying yes and some saying no what's the proper wording when you got answers all over the board?

[David Meiland]

Widely accepted best practices call for a WRB, and in this case it was omitted. Only common exception would be ZIP sheathing, or locations like Tucson.

[Scottpat]

I have started seeing more of this lately, Vinyl siding installed without a barrier behind it. It's just installed right on the osb sheeting. NC codes don't' allow it and require a barrier acccodiinf to the State code official, but our NC Home Inspection Board dos not allow us to cite code. Called Cerainteed and they say it is recommended but not required as far as they are concerned. Local code guy says it's ok on just the OSB. Obviously I got to inform the client but with some saying yes and some saying no what's the proper wording when you got answers all over the board?

Ren, I would report the lack of it like this. NC has such a screwy reporting requirement that ya just need to work around it the best you can.

The vinyl siding on the home does not have a weather resistant barrier as a second layer of protection. The manufacturer of the siding recommends it as well as good building practices but unfortunately the State of NC Home Inspector License Board does not allow me to tell you that this is or is not against the building code. If you wish, you may contact (insert local building code officials name and phone number), they are the building official for this area and should be able to tell you what I can not due to state law.

[kurt]

Yes, I'd be publicizing the stupid reporting restrictions as much as the problem with the siding.

[hausdok]

Yeah,

But the real problem is a licensing board that's afraid to upset the realtors. Translated into English; they're a bunch of f***ing cowards.

Hey NC Home Inspectors License board,

You guys are a bunch of Pussies!

[ramdino]

The reasons NC came up with that law is because the phrase" does not meet code" was being used by inspectors with no other explanation leaving the clients with a big question mark. It was also being used in situations where it may not meet code now but it may have met code when the house was built. The state does not prevent you from citing code, but it does require you to do it based upon when the home was built or item installed, like a deck built after the house was built. You have to go back, find the original code citation for when the house ot deck was built and cite it verbatim. I'm not going to take the time to do that research. I still can cite items like that but from a saftey or manufacturers recommendation standpoint.

[BADAIR]

the vinyl siding industry has specific instruction

http://www.vinylsiding.org/installation/manual/

Water-Resistive Barrier

Vinyl siding has always been designed as an exterior cladding, not a water-resistive barrier.

Vinyl siding is designed to allow the material underneath it to breathe; therefore, it is not a watertight covering. Because of its design and application, it provides a supplemental rain screen that enhances the water-resistive barrier system by reducing the amount of water that reaches the underlying water-resistive barrier.

What Is a Water-Resistive Barrier System? It is a system that includes water shedding materials and water diversion materials. Water-resistive barrier systems commonly consist of a combination of exterior cladding, flashed wall openings and penetrations, water-resistive barrier material, and sheathing. Effective water-resistive barrier systems will shed the water initially, control moisture flow by capillary and diffusion action, and minimize absorption into the wall structure. The level of water resistance required is determined by the applicable building code and structure.

Best Practice: To achieve designed performance, vinyl siding must be installed over a water-resistive barrier system that includes 1) a continuous water-resistive material and 2) properly integrated flashing around all penetrations and where vinyl siding interfaces with other building products such as brick, stone, or stucco. Refer to the manufacturer’s instructions for specific product applications and recommendations.

Whichever product(s) you decide to use as part of a water-resistive barrier system, be certain the materials meet the applicable building code by contacting the manufacturer of the water resistive barrier material(s). Always consult the applicable building code for minimum water-resistive barrier requirements in your area. Keep in mind that additional measures may provide better protection against water intrusion than the minimum requirements of the building code.

&

in this q&a wording

it's not the inspector citing code, it's the wood sheathing mfr. industry ymmv

http://www.apawood.org/level_c.cfm?cont ... ch_libmain

APA Help Desk Question: Requirements for weather-resistive barriers

Posted At : July 17, 2006 9:44 AM | Posted By : APA

Related Categories: Plywood,Code,Walls,Residential,Siding,Help Desk,OSB

Question: What are the requirements surrounding weather-resistive barriers over wood structural panel wall sheathing? Can this requirement be exempt?

Answer: Until recently, building code provisions and APA recommendations allowed omission of additional weather barriers over wood structural panel sheathing, which historically were recognized as water-repellent panel sheathing.

With changes to building practices and in an effort to reduce chances of moisture-related problems in wall cavities, APA revised its stance on the topic in 2001 to recommend the application of additional weather barriers in wall assemblies.

Leaks through exterior wall covering systems, if prolonged, can lead to mold and structural decay. This concern led to APA's revised recommendations and building code requirements for weather barriers behind all exterior sidings – an inexpensive insurance against potential damage.

Current model building code provisions call for the use of weather-resistive barriers between exterior wall cladding (e.g., all types of siding, brick veneer, stucco) and wood structural panel wall sheathing (e.g., plywood and OSB). Weather-resistive barriers are also required behind panel siding applied direct to studs.

While earlier editions of Evaluation Report NER-108 recognized APA Rated Sheathing (plywood and OSB) as water-repellent panel sheathing, as defined by the Standard Building Code and the Uniform Building Code, the July 1, 2003 edition (ICC Evaluation Service, Inc. Legacy Report NER-108) no longer included this recognition. NER-108 now states, "Sheathing shall be installed in accordance with the applicable Code provisions for wood structural panels of Sheathing Grade..."

In the past, some building code provisions allowed omission of additional weather barriers over wood structural panel sheathing recognized as water-repellent panel sheathing. The International Building Code (IBC) and International Residential Code (IRC) now require some form of protective barrier over wood structural panel (plywood and OSB) applied as exterior wall sheathing:

2004 IBC Supplement Section 1404.2: "Water-resistive barrier. A minimum of one layer of No. 15 asphalt felt, complying with ASTM D 226 for Type1 felt, shall be attached to the studs or sheathing, with flashing as described in Section 1405.3, in such a manner as to provide a continuous water-resistive barrier behind the exterior wall veneer."

2004 IRC Supplement Section R703.2: "Weather-resistant sheathing paper. One layer of No. 15 asphalt felt, free from holes and breaks, complying with ASTM D 226 for Type 1 felt or other approved weather-resistive materials shall be applied over studs or sheathing of all exterior walls. …" The section goes on to describe acceptable application referring to Table 703.4 and certain limited exceptions. Revisions to Table R703.4 are such that options for omitting paper provided in previous editions of Table R703.4 have been virtually eliminated.

APA’s Build a Better Home web site provides recommendations to help ensure moisture protection. APA’s Build a Better Home: Walls, Form A530, addresses the proper use of weather-resistive barriers.

Technical Topic APA Building Paper Recommendations for Walls, Form TT-005, provides additional information.

are NC inspectors fined for or restricted from adding industry mfr. instructions or recognized basic installation standards to their report verbiage?

[hausdok]

Ramdino,

Then it's worse than them being pussies; they don't know what the hell they are doing. If they want to tell you how to write your reports they must first know how to write a report and it doesn't sound like they know. I say that because they could do everyone a favor, if they are going to be report overseers, by insisting that every comment identifying a deficiency do the following:

- Identify the issue

- Explain why it is bad for the house and the consequences of inaction and support that with references - code, texts, manufacturer's instructions, etc..

- A clear recommendation to the client(s) about what to do next - ie. have it repaired by a plumber or electrician, have it investigated by such-and-such specialist and then repaired as needed based on the specialist's recommendation, etc..

I agree that just saying that: "The deck ledger is not attached correctly and violates code." doesn't provide the client much info and is pretty useless, but making it harder for inspectors to provide usable references is just as bad.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Marc]

Yeah,

But the real problem is a licensing board that's afraid to upset the realtors. Translated into English; they're a bunch of f***ing cowards.

Hey NC Home Inspectors License board,

You guys are a bunch of Pussies!

It has nothing to do with realtors because in NC the HI Licensure Board is within the Engineering and Codes division of the Office of State Fire Marshall.

What's happening here is that the NC codes people just don't get what home inspections are about, just like the rest of the country. They think home inspections are a subset of code inspectors, a watered-down, ill-defined, mangled mess of an attempt at a code inspection. Grrrr.

Realtor, code and HI regulatory bodies should be arranged shoulder to shoulder, none having any jurisdiction over the other two. The states, with perhaps a few exceptions like Washington, just can't get it right.

Marc

[Eric B]

Called Cerainteed and they say it is recommended but not required as far as they are concerned. Local code guy says it's ok on just the OSB.

I've been through this monkey business before. Certainteed states in their application instructions that the substrate must be "watertight" prior to the application of the vinyl siding. Now go to the OSB manufacturer and ask them if their product is intended to be a watertight barrier. They're going to say no. Then hit the insulation and drywall manufacturers with the same question. Wanna guess what their answer will be?

This is all due to morons weaseling around in the muck and ignoring the science of construction.

[ramdino]

Mike the HI board has taken some steps in that direction through CE. They have an acronym DIDD that they want followed for items that are required to be inspected by their SOP. Not all items are required like plumbing roof boots since they don';t require traversing the roof. DDID stands for:

Determine the problem

Identify the problem

Document the problem and it's ramifications

Direct the client

In most cases the direction they teach in the CE classes as mandated by the state are " Have evaluated by a structural engineer " Or have evaluated by a licensed electrician" etc ad nausem

The biggest issue I have is that the state needs to remove the Realtors from the equation completely like they have the mortgage brokers. As long as inspectors get their major referrals from Realtors they will continue to be a problem.

I got inspectors in my area doing verbal reports for a cheaper rate, clear violation of the law but Realtors keep referring em'

and inspectors not informing clients of the severity of something so they don't get on the Realtors bad side.

[resqman]

The Realtors and HBA lobbied the NC legislators 2 years ago pushing the citeing of code issue. At the time there were only about 1500 inspectors statewide. Only about 1/3 to 1/2 belong to associations. Even when all the associations play nicely and work together, there is/was not enough money and pull to completely sway the legislators when compared to the RE and HBA lobbying money.

The licensing law actually states inspectors cannot cite NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENTIAL CODE without posting the code in effect at the time the defective part was installed. Does not say anything about citing IRC, UPC, UMC, or NEC. So technically you could cite the IRC and there is no legal basis for them to complain or attack you. A simple loophole in the law.

Yeah, all the inspectors complained at the time. The associations did pay two different lobbist and did succeed in watering down a whole lot of silliness being proposed at the time by RE and HBA. Citeing code stayed.

[Ben H]

Yeah,

But the real problem is a licensing board that's afraid to upset the realtors. Translated into English; they're a bunch of f***ing cowards.

Hey NC Home Inspectors License board,

You guys are a bunch of Pussies!

The shortest and most direct post from Mike ever!

[Curious194]

Finally, some inspectors who understand what I have to deal with every day. Kurt and hausdok, THANK YOU.

My hands are supposed to be tied here. I have sellers agents call me up all the time and say or yell how I can't write something up because it is not code or the home was built before the applicable code. Anyway, I would flag it. I would assume you could get one or two home inspectors and a dozen contractors to back you up on this one. Who wants the potential of the sheathing being exposed to water. Anytime you have bad storms with unusual wind activity, you will get some water in behind the siding. And then there is the obvious humidity

[John Dirks Jr]

Yeah,

But the real problem is a licensing board that's afraid to upset the realtors. Translated into English; they're a bunch of f***ing cowards.

Hey NC Home Inspectors License board,

You guys are a bunch of Pussies!

Slam dunk! [:-thumbu]

[Eric B]

My hands are supposed to be tied here. I have sellers agents call me up all the time and say or yell how I can't write something up because it is not code or the home was built before the applicable code.

You could reasonably argue that the condition (absent wrap) does not meet "code."