Building paper with vinyl siding

[ramdino]

Anyone got a boiler plate for the requirements of building paper behind vinyl siding?

[John Dirks Jr]

There is no water resistive barrier beneath the vinyl siding at *** Current building code requires that water resistive barriers be used under vinyl siding. Furthermore, siding manufacturers have always recommended that water resistive barriers be used as part of best practice installation of their products. The reason is, vinyl siding is not intended to be waterproof. Water resistive barriers under siding help shed water and prevent damage to the wood sheathing and other structural components. Because of this, I recommend further investigation by a qualified contractor to determine if water damage exists. Special attention should be paid to areas around windows and doors and other siding penetrations including any deck ledger attachments. If water damage is discovered under the siding, the damaged materials should be replaced. Page 2 of the following document talks about water resistive barriers and their importance as components of vinyl siding systems. To prevent water damage to the buildings materials, you should consider having the siding redone to include a water resistive barrier. http://home.comcast.net/~marylandhomein ... nstall.pdf

[ramdino]

That's great John. Thanks

[Mike Lamb]

There is no water resistive barrier beneath the vinyl siding at *** Current building code requires that water resistive barriers be used under vinyl siding. Furthermore, siding manufacturers have always recommended that water resistive barriers be used as part of best practice installation of their products. The reason is, vinyl siding is not intended to be waterproof. Water resistive barriers under siding help shed water and prevent damage to the wood sheathing and other structural components. Because of this, I recommend further investigation by a qualified contractor to determine if water damage exists. Special attention should be paid to areas around windows and doors and other siding penetrations including any deck ledger attachments. If water damage is discovered under the siding, the damaged materials should be replaced. Page 2 of the following document talks about water resistive barriers and their importance as components of vinyl siding systems. To prevent water damage to the buildings materials, you should consider having the siding redone to include a water resistive barrier. http://home.comcast.net/~marylandhomein ... nstall.pdf

I don't think this is going to help your client much. If you see no signs of moisture problems, are you still recommending a contractor remove the exterior siding for "further investigation?"

If you think all the siding should be removed and installed with a moisture barrier you should say so.

[John Dirks Jr]

There is no water resistive barrier beneath the vinyl siding at *** Current building code requires that water resistive barriers be used under vinyl siding. Furthermore, siding manufacturers have always recommended that water resistive barriers be used as part of best practice installation of their products. The reason is, vinyl siding is not intended to be waterproof. Water resistive barriers under siding help shed water and prevent damage to the wood sheathing and other structural components. Because of this, I recommend further investigation by a qualified contractor to determine if water damage exists. Special attention should be paid to areas around windows and doors and other siding penetrations including any deck ledger attachments. If water damage is discovered under the siding, the damaged materials should be replaced. Page 2 of the following document talks about water resistive barriers and their importance as components of vinyl siding systems. To prevent water damage to the buildings materials, you should consider having the siding redone to include a water resistive barrier. http://home.comcast.net/~marylandhomein ... nstall.pdf

I don't think this is going to help your client much. If you see no signs of moisture problems, are you still recommending a contractor remove the exterior siding for "further investigation?"

If you think all the siding should be removed and installed with a moisture barrier you should say so.

I'm interested in seeing the written comments that anyone else uses. Heck, I bet that 50% or more of the inspectors out there don't even peek under the seams to see if the moisture barrier is even there. They consider the detail hidden. They're too afraid to even discover it's not there in fear of what they might have to say about it.

Lets hear what others would write. I'm all ears.

[Marc]

There's no water resistive barrier installed behind the vinyl siding. This barrier is what keep rainwater from reaching the wood components of the wall. Vinyl siding alone can't be depended upon to function in a fail-proof manner. Practically, it often leaks at the ends and at door/window openings.

I didn't see any evidence that water has actually breached the siding and damaged the sheathing and other wall components behind it but then this inspection is a non-invasive one. I can't remove siding to see what's behind it.

The rest, including the recommendation, would depend on whether the installation has stood the test of time or was recently installed.

Just my suggestion.

Marc

[Tom Raymond]

John, what you wrote is accurate but way too long winded. You need to pare that down by at least half, and once you become comfortable writing like that, prune it some more. I know, I struggle with keeping my comments brief.

Also, your VSI document is way out of date. The current version is 2011. Instead of linking a document, consider linking directly to the website. That way your report contains the volumes of information you wish to convey, while subject matter experts are charged with keeping it current.

[ramdino]

Tom, thanks for your input to my poll. A couple of thoughts. You are correct about being long winded. I too struggle with that. NC SOP training says we are to be terse and succinct. They want us to be a brief as possible. Problem is that goes against both sides of the transaction typically. Some buyers, most of mine what as much info as they can get. To there credit so do some Realtors. Some, most, want as little as possible, not necessarily because they want us to lie but because either they don't understand all the info, don't care' or are in too big a hurry' or are worried about confusing the buyer. I would rather err on the side of too much info.

I also like you idea of linking to the site, but I like Matt's idea of giving an old citation. Reason being 'if it was done that way in 2007, I can justify applying it to a 2010 house where as if I cite a 2011 document' the realtor or whomever can shoot it down as being applicable to a 2012 house.

[kurt]

It's pretty boiler-platey. Forget the "further analysis" part; it's wrong. Say so.

"The vinyl siding lacks a moisture barrier (on most houses, Tyvek or house wrap is the moisture barrier). This means water can get into places where it can cause damage. No one, including me, can know if there's damage, and to what extent, without removing siding. There's no way to fix it without removing all the siding and reinstalling house wrap and new siding.

All published information from siding manufacturers and industry advisory organizations indicate this installation is wrong. If you Google the issue, you will find a large amount of information indicating this is wrong.

Go here, read up, call me with any questions.....(insert links)."

Even this is long, but it's one of those things that deserves a few extra explanations and links. I love it when I can find actual damage; then it gets reduced down to a couple sentences with a picture and an arrow.

I don't use terms like "water resistive barrier" in a report; no one knows or cares but we dweebs that parse minutiae.

[SNations]

To prevent water damage to the buildings materials, you should consider having the siding redone to include a water resistive barrier. http://home.comcast.net/~marylandhomein ... nstall.pdf

To consider having some work done won't prevent water damage. To prevent water damage you must actually take some action, not just consider it.

Maybe you're trying to hedge your bet in that water damage might not occur even in the absence of any action. But you've done that in an inarticulate manner.

[In-Depth]

Here's my comment:

Marginal- There is no house wrap/water resistant barrier installed under the vinyl siding. While not a building requirement at the time the house was constructed, installing house wrap is considered best building practice and helps prevent moisture intrusion and air leakage/infiltration. Vinyl siding is not water-proof and is not designed to prevent water intrusion. Water intrusion behind the siding may result in rot and decay of the exterior sheathing, which could lead to moisture intrusion in the wall cavities. I checked under the siding at 3 or 4 accessible areas and no deterioration of the sheathing was visible, but that does not mean there is no deterioration anywhere. Installing house wrap after the fact will require stripping the siding completely and may not be practical.

I recommend regular checking of the sheathing condition under the siding near doors and windows, as well as drainage points and areas of roof run-off, as these areas can be the most problematic as far as moisture intrusion.

Probably too wordy, but people get the point. I tell them to hope for a hail storm that hits all sides of the house!

Jim

[Jim Katen]

Anyone got a boiler plate for the requirements of building paper behind vinyl siding?

I don't have boilerplate for it because I see it so rarely. If I did see it, I'd write something like this:

On the exterior walls of the house, the vinyl siding was improperly installed without any water-resistant paper behind it. Wind-driven rain can leak through the seams in the vinyl and soak the house framing or cause it to rot. I looked behind a few pieces of siding and found stains at *location.* I didn't find any rot today, though it might be present in places that I didn't look. There's no way to fix this problem without completely re-siding the house.

Recommendation: Remove the existing improperly installed vinyl siding and replace it with new siding, properly installed per the manufacturer's installation instructions. Alternatively, accept the risk that the existing improperly installed siding might cause future water damage, and plan to make repairs as necessary in the future.

I would cite references in footnotes, not the body of the comment.

[John Dirks Jr]

What difficulties would there be in properly wrapping a house if the windows are already installed? Normally, the house is wrapped before the windows are put in.

I appreciate the criticism on what I write. There's always room for improvement. Even more, I appreciate those who share what they write.

[kurt]

Good point. There'd have to be flashing or other waterproofing details applied as part of the siding job. The house wrap could never be exactly right without pulling the windows, but I can imagine a good sheet metal guy being able to work something out.

If someone wasn't highly competent in putting together flashing packages, I'd be skeptical of the work being satisfactory.

[Jim Katen]

What difficulties would there be in properly wrapping a house if the windows are already installed? Normally, the house is wrapped before the windows are put in.

I appreciate the criticism on what I write. There's always room for improvement. Even more, I appreciate those who share what they write.

To do it right, you'd have to reinstall the windows as well.

[John Dirks Jr]

50% of the houses in my area which had vinyl siding as their initial cladding do not have water resisting barrier beneath. Shoot, earlier this year I inspected one built in 2011 with regular OSB sheathing and no wrap.

It killed the deal and the builder was ticked. He claimed the code did not require it since the county in question was still on 2003 IRC. I told him we should look at the siding manufactures installation instructions. I never heard back from him.

[Jim Katen]

50% of the houses in my area which had vinyl siding as their initial cladding do not have water resisting barrier beneath. Shoot, earlier this year I inspected one built in 2011 with regular OSB sheathing and no wrap.

It killed the deal and the builder was ticked. He claimed the code did not require it since the county in question was still on 2003 IRC. I told him we should look at the siding manufactures installation instructions. I never heard back from him.

As I said, it's not common in my area - or at least not on the houses that I generally inspect. Most of the houses that I see with vinyl siding have another, older siding material under them. And most of the ones that don't have siding behind them have the WRB. I do remember one newly constructed house with vinyl and no WRB. Water was leaking through the siding and pooling on the floors under the carpet. I later heard that the whole development had the same problem.

[kurt]

The one's we've opened up have the usual "black" damage along the lower edges of the sheathing and into the subfloor, and dark black at the lower corners of all the windows.

It's more of a long, slow, absorption mess than pooling on the floors. Always one hell of a mess, though.

[Tom Raymond]

The black staining below windows indicate that the wrap and flashing details don't work. They're on every one I have opened up. Where the WRB has been omitted you can poke through the sheathing with your finger, or peel off the 'strands' just like skinning an onion.

I looked at one last week where a contractor put several feet of Grace ice and water shield around a window and it was still leaking. Dummy put it on top of the WRB.