Snow country question

[Denray]

I was recently visiting a friend who has way too much money. 7000 sq ft home at Tahoe and the wall siding comes down to the shingles. I saw many homes around with the same set up. Whether in snow country or not shouldn't there be a couple of inches of flashing showing there? I can see moisture stains on his siding, which is redwood. I pushed on it with my car key and it was still solid after 20 years.

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[hausdok]

That's just dumb. Looks like they brought in the siding guy before they put the roof cover on and both the siding guy and the roofing guy lacked the ability to use common sense.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Denray]

I saw like 10 houses nearby done the same way.

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Nearby meaning up to 1 mile away. Epidemic problem?

[hausdok]

Yeah,

Here's why; the guys whose name is on the company letterhead don't do the building anymore.

Around here the work is subbed out to the same foundation contractors, framing contractors, window and door contractors, siding contractors, roofing contractors, wiring contractors, HVAC contractors, plumbing contractors, drywall contractors regardless of who the builder is. Up to the point where the floor and wall finishes and the fixtures, appliances and countertops go in the homes are identical in quality and technique and the only difference to that point is location, size and style.

So, you can purchase a Quadrant Home, which is supposed to be the equivalent of a Chevy Aria in quality around here in comparison to a Burnstead home which is supposed to be like the Mercedes M classl; and they've been built by exactly the same guys using products from exactly the same manufacturer's up until the point where the final finishes start going in. The dumbass roofer and the dumbass siding guy over there probably both end up on many of the same jobs. And yes, it is an epidemic.

The term custom home seems to be a joke anymore.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[kurt]

............the homes are identical in quality and technique and the only difference to that point is location, size and style.

Yeah, pretty much.

[John Kogel]

Cedar shakes add several inches of height to the roof. So the siding should have been stopped about 4 " above the roof deck, which would have taken a word from the builder to the sub.

Bet he was busy starting some other project.

Some builders don't like to have the flashing showing at all. I remember being instructed to go tight to the roof. Cedar and redwood, no problem for the first few years anyway.

[Nolan Kienitz]

Maybe its because in the summer (most decent weather available for construction) the trades are doing such work and then they are instructing noob skiers or serving the elite on holiday. []

[Denray]

Thank you everyone.

[Bill Kibbel]

Whether in snow country or not shouldn't there be a couple of inches of flashing showing there?

That's correct - there's an issue with debris not washing out and it can act just like ice/snow dams.

[Denray]

And my friends response is:

Tell your friends that none of you know what you're talking about. First the gray "water stains" on the Redwood are NOT!

The wall you photographed faces south it weathers very fast from the sun. Painters over the years failed to re stain it next to the shingles. The sun and oxidation turned it gray.

The construction of the roof as well as the rest of the house was done under my supervision and I was the architect .

The construction was as follows bitchathane roofing sealant was applied to both the roof and the wall. 18" each direction of flashing at the roof wall seam. The redwood siding wall was intentionally applied full length with the Cedar Shakes(Jumbos)butted to the wall. As the woods involved were Redwood and Cedar there was no concern for deterioration as was evidenced by the key test.

From an architectural point of view had the Redwood wall been gapped above the shingles and the flashing been exposed, the flashing would have needed to be in copper to be color and quality consistent with a multi million $ home. Ultimately it would have turned green.

Lastly siding gapped with flashing regularly fails in snow country. Ice dams form on the flashing as it is colder these dams can grow to 2' and more. Water not only leaks into the house but freeze back can occur prying the siding from the wall not to mention the effect of snow creep.

[Rob Amaral]

That is a mostly-dry environment anyway, right?

[John Kogel]

I'd like to see green copper flashing on my multi mill vacation home. []

[Jim Katen]

And my friends response is:

Tell your friends that none of you know what you're talking about. First the gray "water stains" on the Redwood are NOT!

The wall you photographed faces south it weathers very fast from the sun. Painters over the years failed to re stain it next to the shingles. The sun and oxidation turned it gray.

So the water had nothing to do with it? Do south facing walls in your area always remain dry?

The construction of the roof as well as the rest of the house was done under my supervision and I was the architect .

The construction was as follows bitchathane roofing sealant was applied to both the roof and the wall. 18" each direction of flashing at the roof wall seam. The redwood siding wall was intentionally applied full length with the Cedar Shakes(Jumbos)butted to the wall. As the woods involved were Redwood and Cedar there was no concern for deterioration as was evidenced by the key test.

The thing about making stuff up as you go is that you can't rely on the experience of others to help with the design. Redwood siding sunk into a water trough will last for many years, but it will eventually rot. No one can say exactly how long it will last but, I think, everyone should agree that keeping it up out of the water will allow it to last longer. It's a poor design from a performance perspective - maybe it's a good design from a cosmetic perspective and maybe that's more important to you.

From an architectural point of view had the Redwood wall been gapped above the shingles and the flashing been exposed, the flashing would have needed to be in copper to be color and quality consistent with a multi million $ home. Ultimately it would have turned green.

I disagree. Lead flashing would have worked well and looked fine. Heck, galvaized steel flashing with a factory applied brown paint would have lasted 30 years with ease - probably longer than the redwood will last when sunken into that trough.

Lastly siding gapped with flashing regularly fails in snow country. Ice dams form on the flashing as it is colder these dams can grow to 2' and more. Water not only leaks into the house but freeze back can occur prying the siding from the wall not to mention the effect of snow creep.

I agree, but that has nothing to do with the discussion. The details in the picture are not superior to a properly flashed joint in that regard. If you get a 2' high ice dam, it's just as likely to leak with your system as it would if it were flashed (with bituthane behind it).

And, just in case it's not clear, flashing isn't colder than the surrounding materials in winter. It's the same temperature. However, it does have a higher rate of heat transmission, which makes it seem colder to the touch. I doubt that ice dams are more likely to form on metal flashing because of this quality, though. That part of the argument just isn't true.

FWIW, I think that you should be able to design your roof any way you want. Your kind of out-of-the-box thinking is the way that we learn about new methods. It's just that, from those pictures and your description, I don't think that you've come up with an improvement on the traditional method in anything other than a cosmetic regard.

[Denray]

Rob, It's at 6k feet and next to the lake. Still way dryer than here 3 miles from the sea. I get nose bleeds when visiting. Get a lot of snow there. That guys dad owned a major ski resort. He grew up liking and learning the business. He's always been learning all kinds of stuff. Helped design the first snow making equipment for resorts. Lived in that environment most of his life. Ended up running dad's resort. Now runs another one. Brainyack type. He had a better response than most homeowners would have. Seems like ice dams come from improper insulation nearby. There was no kickout at the end either. Easy to drip in behind it. But, still hanging in there. Good discussion.

[John Kogel]

He has a point. The wood is under snow for months, then it gets real wet, but it has all summer to dry out.

Cut planks absorb water most readily thru the ends. It would be better to lay a longitudinal trim plank in there, which would dry faster and could be replaced.

Eventually, the siding will rot. Redwood, cedar, whatever.

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